Advice on purchasing a cartridge and stylus

[ohmrun]

I've had a good look through the forum and it doesn't seem this has been asked anywhere.
I'm slowly building my hifi setup and I'm up to the point now where I need to choose a cartridge and stylus for my turntable. Whilst I have enjoyed going down the rabbit hole for almost everything component and speaker related, I've found looking into this tiny little add on to be extremely overwhelming, hard to find good scientific information like you can for almost everything else. And really just leads me to forums where people start throwing out a lot of hifi verbal garbage about their MC having an apparent airiness between instruments compared to their MM cartridge ect.

I am currently looking at purchasing a Roksan Xerxes 20 Plus as I have found an ex demo model in excellent condition for a very good price. It will feed into my Yamaha C5000 then into the M5000 (which I also snagged for a very good price).

I don't have a budget per se, if I need to spend more money on something because I get a quality product with tangible benefits then I'll do that (to a certain extent).

Where do I start? I don't care if it's MM, MC, or MI (though I'm not a million percent sure on MI, I've only just seen it mentioned a few times in my investigations).

I'd just like a good quality cartridge and stylus for my hifi. Any suggestions or avenues of investigation would be greatly appreciated because I'm completely lost.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I've had a good look through the forum and it doesn't seem this has been asked anywhere.

This is the thread for you!

Popular recent recommendations include the AT-VM95 or the upgraded body AT-VM540. Stylus are interchangeable, I think popular recommendations suggest MicroLine is better than Elliptical.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script written by @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be found in the following threads...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[ohmrun]

This is the thread for you!

Popular recent recommendations include the AT-VM95 or the upgraded body AT-VM540. Stylus are interchangeable, I think popular recommendations suggest MicroLine is better than Elliptical.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script written by @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be found in the following threads...

audiosciencereview.com

Great place to start. Thank you so much!

 

[dlaloum]

Your starting point should be information on the effective (moving) mass of the tonearm, and whether it has some form of damping mechanism built in.

Based on that, you can narrow your search to cartridges/styli with a compliance that matches the arm (and a wider lattitude / variability of compliance, if that arm also has damping)

Then from that narrowed field you can consider those cartridges that best match your phono stage input levels (unless you plan on getting an external phono stage, or getting fancy with digital....).

Finally, assuming you now have a short list of cartridges that can match your setup... Sort based on lowest possible effective tip mass of the needle/cantilever.
(that usually implies an exotic cantilever)

Unless you are going for an external phono stage with adjustable loading/EQ - I would stick to OEM Cartridge/Needle combinations (for MM's, MI's).
If you have a flexible external EQ/loading system - then you can look at a wide variety of vintage cartridges and the currently available replacement styli for them.

Oh and definitely stick with Line Contact needle shapes - preferably a Namiki/ML/FritzGeiger type cut... if you need to economise you can drop down to HE (hyper-eliptical) or Shibata - but needle life will be shorter... (in that case, an MM/MI becomes more important, as swapping needles is much more economical and easy to do than replacing the entire cartridge!)

 

[ohmrun]

Your starting point should be information on the effective (moving) mass of the tonearm, and whether it has some form of damping mechanism built in.

Based on that, you can narrow your search to cartridges/styli with a compliance that matches the arm (and a wider lattitude / variability of compliance, if that arm also has damping)

Then from that narrowed field you can consider those cartridges that best match your phono stage input levels (unless you plan on getting an external phono stage, or getting fancy with digital....).

Finally, assuming you now have a short list of cartridges that can match your setup... Sort based on lowest possible effective tip mass of the needle/cantilever.
(that usually implies an exotic cantilever)

Unless you are going for an external phono stage with adjustable loading/EQ - I would stick to OEM Cartridge/Needle combinations (for MM's, MI's).
If you have a flexible external EQ/loading system - then you can look at a wide variety of vintage cartridges and the currently available replacement styli for them.

Oh and definitely stick with Line Contact needle shapes - preferably a Namiki/ML/FritzGeiger type cut... if you need to economise you can drop down to HE (hyper-eliptical) or Shibata - but needle life will be shorter... (in that case, an MM/MI becomes more important, as swapping needles is much more economical and easy to do than replacing the entire cartridge!)

Thank you @dlaloum. I think your post perfectly encapsulates why I'm so overwhelmed with this. But I will go step by step through your suggested course and see what the outcome is later in the day. I really appreciate you taking the time to write and guide me through this. Thank you.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Thank you @dlaloum. I think your post perfectly encapsulates why I'm so overwhelmed with this. But I will go step by step through your suggested course and see what the outcome is later in the day. I really appreciate you taking the time to write and guide me through this. Thank you.

Back in the 70s and 80s, any of us with high quality home audio systems had to deal with tonearm effective mass and variations on cartridge compliance as well as cable and preamplifier capacitance and resistance. Apart from reel-to-reel and tuners, the only real source of domestic high quality music was via a turntable.

Getting LP playback to be optimised (especially with tuned suspension decks like Linn sold), required a lot of knowledge and dexterity. None of that complexity has disappeared, although starter decks are rarely based on hung suspension architectures. It costs real money and effort to get the best from vinyl.

Even with the best kit and setup, the quality can't approach Red Book CD (with the possible exception of content between 20 and 25kHz).

 

[dlaloum]

Back in the 70s and 80s, any of us with high quality home audio systems had to deal with tonearm effective mass and variations on cartridge compliance as well as cable and preamplifier capacitance and resistance. Apart from reel-to-reel and tuners, the only real source of domestic high quality music was via a turntable.

Getting LP playback to be optimised (especially with tuned suspension decks like Linn sold), required a lot of knowledge and dexterity. None of that complexity has disappeared, although starter decks are rarely based on hung suspension architectures. It costs real money and effort to get the best from vinyl.

Even with the best kit and setup, the quality can't approach Red Book CD (with the possible exception of content between 20 and 25kHz).

To be fair, in each generation, manufacturers provided complete sets of gear that was well matched - at the low end these included conical/spherical or eliptical styli, but the cartridge and arm were well matched.

There was of course for years (and still is!) immense confusion in the upgrade and custom space, where many people (often including the salesmen), simply did not understand what was involved, and therefore mixed and matched components that really did not do well together. My own experience in the late 80's involved a truly exceptional Revox linatrack turntable/arm, and a vendor recomendation of an Empire/VanDenHull MC1 cartridge.... an ultra low mass arm (4g) with a mid to low compliance cartridge designed for a mid to high mass arm.

The turntable never sounded right, I ended up going all digital, then, 15 years later, came back to it and put an appropriate high compliance cartridge back on it - magic!!!

So yeah lots of people didn't understand it - including those who really should have!

This is why the manufacturers ended up inventing the T4P cartridge/arm system - a standard, where any T4P arm and cartridge could be matched together, a plug and play system, easy to use and as high quality as the manufacturer is willing to make it.

Sadly it arrived at the same time as CD's... became associated with the cheap bottome end turntables (that almost universally switched to T4P at the time)... and along the way, people forgot about the high end T4P options....

Shure had the T4P version of the V15VMR, AT had th T4P version of the AT155 (the AT152), Technics released the EPC100mkIV - a tour de force, the lowest effective tip mass cartridge ever made...

No it needn't be so hard, or expensive to get a great sounding turntable... Linn and the custom brigade it led, led the charge into the swamp, the morass of confusion - it really wasn't necessary. (but they, and their ilk, made a lot of money that way)

And yes a record can surprise you with its fidelity.... but it takes more effort than with a CD.
Typically, I used to say, you can approach CD quality with vinyl, but it is likely to cost twice as much to do it...

 

[Bob from Florida]

I've had a good look through the forum and it doesn't seem this has been asked anywhere.
I'm slowly building my hifi setup and I'm up to the point now where I need to choose a cartridge and stylus for my turntable. Whilst I have enjoyed going down the rabbit hole for almost everything component and speaker related, I've found looking into this tiny little add on to be extremely overwhelming, hard to find good scientific information like you can for almost everything else. And really just leads me to forums where people start throwing out a lot of hifi verbal garbage about their MC having an apparent airiness between instruments compared to their MM cartridge ect.

I am currently looking at purchasing a Roksan Xerxes 20 Plus as I have found an ex demo model in excellent condition for a very good price. It will feed into my Yamaha C5000 then into the M5000 (which I also snagged for a very good price).

I don't have a budget per se, if I need to spend more money on something because I get a quality product with tangible benefits then I'll do that (to a certain extent).

Where do I start? I don't care if it's MM, MC, or MI (though I'm not a million percent sure on MI, I've only just seen it mentioned a few times in my investigations).

I'd just like a good quality cartridge and stylus for my hifi. Any suggestions or avenues of investigation would be greatly appreciated because I'm completely lost.

Nice turntable, although if I were buying from scratch would focus on a direct drive with good tonearm. Not what you were asking - get the AT VM95SH. If you are getting the matching Sara arm - 24.2 grams effective mass - you should stick to lower compliance cartridges. As you move up the line at AT, the compliance goes up and on paper suit lower mass arms. Lower compliance cartridges will in "theory" equal better bass with the Sara. Folks will tell you to get a microline over the shibata for various reasons - the VM95 has that choice also. The Shibata is a good all around choice - setup not terribly picky, detail not "too much", and decent stylus life.
Good luck and be sure to post with a "how things work out" reply.

 

[madrac]

Agreed, nice turntable. Have you considered others - VPI make some nice TT (Prime, Classic) at reasonable prices (full disclosure - I own a Classic 1) - which are easily upgraded.
As to cartridges, I really like Sound-Smith moving iron (currently have a PAUA on my TT, have used the Carmen as well as a VAS NOVA MC). A big plus, IMO, for the Sound-Smith cartridges is that the rebuild price is very reasonable (like 20% of MSRP, some models may be less than that).

 

[spiral scratch]

People often make turntable recommendations, but maybe since you're starting from scratch you might want to start with the cartridge and figure what you want there. Then look for suitable arms for it. Usually you get the arm and turntable as a package, but not always. I like MC, but it's just what I currrently use. I use a Denon-103R with a high mass arm. I used the Denon with a mid mass arm, but then I had to add pennies on the headshell to give it more mass. I'm working on getting a low mass arm/ high compliance cartridge going just to hear what it's about. Most current cartridges are mid mass as are the arms, so that will give you the most options. Probably the cut of the stylus is the most important thing to consider and then cantilever and then the body. MCs are nice as they are not hampered by capacitance so you can use them with a lot of different phono preamps, like in vintage receivers which is what I do. They also offer less mass on the cantilever which might explain the "airyness" you read about. MI also accomplish this in a slightly different manner. MM are fine too and again most commonly available so more options.

 

[JP]

They also offer less mass on the cantilever which might explain the "airyness" you read about.

Not true - there is no inherent ETM advantage to MC. “Air”, if real, is largely attributable to peaking HF response.

 

[DSJR]

S'cuse my ignorance, but is this deck you're buying fitted with the Nima tonearm?

If the arm *is* a Nima, with careful set-up you can fit almost anything you like frankly. This deck is NOT likely to exaggerate the 'vinyl sonic halo' colouration that many players offer and which subjectivist vinylistas love so much. Indeed, I dare say it'll help any records played to sound as clean as they possibly can (it's original ancestor was potentially excellent in this aspect).

I don't know how good or not the MC input is on the Yamaha (assuming it has one, but the performance there isn't always as good as a stand-alone stage), but my first port of cartridge choices would be AT VM760 and Ortofon 2M Black, both of which widely available, the 2M Black well known and respected by almost all I believe and I'd politely suggest that both of these are arguably better than top models from Nagaoka, Goldring and so on (I'm open to correction here though).

As for MC types, I know the AT OC9 line and love 'em I have to say, the high frequencies definitely improving as you go up to the top Shibata tipped one. Again, easy to get and the basic design goes back decades and priced a fraction of what once similar price competition is now (I cite current Denon, Sumiko and Dynavector prices as evidence prior to 2008). Ortofon have several MC 'ranges' and honestly not sure about these, as they can 'design a sound signature' to order it seems.

 

[Verig]

I don't know how good or not the MC input is on the Yamaha (assuming it has one, but the performance there isn't always as good as a stand-alone stage), but my first port of cartridge choices would be AT VM760 and Ortofon 2M Black, both of which widely available, the 2M Black well known and respected by almost all I believe and I'd politely suggest that both of these are arguably better than top models from Nagaoka, Goldring and so on (I'm open to correction here though).

Solid choices. I don't think there's anything really "better". Different, yes. Technically either of those two is the only cart one ever needs. Way above the level most people ever buy.

 

[JP]

Technically, the 40ML is the better choice. It'll last longer with more consistent performance through its useful life than the 50 or 60.

 

[Verig]

Technically, the 40ML is the better choice. It'll last longer with more consistent performance through its useful life than the 50 or 60.

Fair point. Not a real problem with my hours but definitely a consideration.

 

[dlaloum]

MCs are nice as they are not hampered by capacitance so you can use them with a lot of different phono preamps, like in vintage receivers which is what I do. They also offer less mass on the cantilever which might explain the "airyness" you read about. MI also accomplish this in a slightly different manner. MM are fine too and again most commonly available so more options.

The claim that "MC's .... offer less mass on the cantilever" is an oft repeated myth.

Actual measurements and specifications show that the lowest effective tip mass designs have been MM (Technics EPC100mk4)

And the reason for the "airyness" reputation, has to do with the rising high end on many MC's - that rise is caused by the cantilever resonance - and is also present on MM's, but on the MM designs it can be controlled by using the cartridge loading (both R & C) as a means of EQ.... which is why many of the designs with the most neutral (flat) frequency response, have always been MM's !

With an MC you get the "raw" performance of the cartridge/cantilever - there is no native / analogue method of EQ/correction - they are capacitance insensitive... where with an MM, an increase in capacitance can be used very easily to tame a rising high end.

Having said that, in this day and age of hybrid analogue/digital systems, applying EQ becomes easy.... and the limitations of the past need not be an issue.

As long as your cartridge/stylus choice has a high performance (low effective tip mass) cantilever, and a well shaped/cut needle (good line contact design) - then load / EQ / Frequency response issues or voicing preferences, can be applied to taste! - you can have a single cartridge that tracks well - and then you can make it sound neutral, or airy, as you wish.

 

[undeakyetonde]

The claim that "MC's .... offer less mass on the cantilever" is an oft repeated myth.

Actual measurements and specifications show that the lowest effective tip mass designs have been MM (Technics EPC100mk4)

I see EPC100mk4 mentioned anytime someone brings effective tip mass in MC/MM. But because something was achieved once upon a time doesn't mean it is true for cartridges available on the market. I don't think absolute ranking of all times is relevant here, however, what is relevant is what you can buy and put on your turntable.

Do we have any reliable ETM data for currently produced cartridges, not something made 30-50 years ago? Otherwise we can neither dispel nor confirm "the myth"

 

[Balle Clorin]

Well, my MM Jico SAS Boron MicriRidge has a resonance just above 20khz, while other samples show resonance at 10-16, and my MC OC9 and 33PTG recent production has 14-16k resonance.. low ETM a thing of the past…
Some Soundsmith and Ortofon cartridges publish recent ETM, in the 0.3+ mg area

from the MC resonance the ETM could be back calculated…

 

[DSJR]

Some MC's used to go out to 50khz or so, reproducing cutter ringing in the test discs very well. Many MM types seem to have the major resonance in the 20 - 30khz region and some pickups of all types appear to have a tie-wire resonance a lot lower down, at least in the past, which is why Rega designed their MC models not to have one (no idea about cantilever drag on heavy modulations and any distortion it garners as this isn't tested today I reckon.

 

[Balle Clorin]

My ATOC9ML goes to 50k with minimal drop off and with the normal peak at 15-16k
Post in thread 'Frequency Response Test Records'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ency-response-test-records.30210/post-2025774