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Active is better sounding than passive

Active is better sounding than passive ?

  • 1. Yes

    Votes: 86 47.0%
  • 2. No

    Votes: 57 31.1%
  • 3. Passive sound better

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 4. I dont know

    Votes: 37 20.2%

  • Total voters
    183

thorvat

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Except cars have objective things like weight, cornering, braking… and maybe acceleration and power.
I seem to recall the Fiero was over 1500 kg, but it was a nice concept ~ (Mid engine, 2 seats.)

Those parameters that you call "objective things" are (some of) the easy parameters of the sports car equation. The tricky part is to set combined boundaries which comprise "sports car" definition.

For example, weight wise, does it have to be under 1500kg? Or it can have more than 1500kg if power to weight ratio is adequate? And if it can, what power to weight ratio is "adequate" for the sports car?
Or none of these are that important but the sole purpose of the car that it has to be made for racing to be a true sports car? Or "track day" cars are also considered sports cars? What about those "gran tourismo" cars that weight app 1700kg but have more than 400HP - are they also sports cars?

Hundreds of such questions should be answered (with answers agreed upon!) before we can even think of precisely defining what "sports car" actually is. Hence such definiton, to my best knowledge, hardly exists I simply answered that sports car perception is in the eyes of the beholder. ;)
 

Holmz

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Or none of these are that important but the sole purpose of the car that it has to be made for racing to be a true sports car? Or "track day" cars are also considered sports cars? What about those "gran tourismo" cars that weight app 1700kg but have more than 400HP - are they also sports cars?

Hundreds of such questions should be answered (with answers agreed upon!) before we can even think of precisely defining what "sports car" actually is. Hence such definiton, to my best knowledge, hardly exists I simply answered that sports car perception is in the eyes of the beholder. ;)

Track day cars are for motorsports.
GTs are for touring.

I would rather a Miata for a sports car, but a 5 or 7 series BMW would be great to have.
The BMW might be faster on a track, but it could cost a tone of $ to run it compared to the lighter vehicle.

In ways a Suzuki Swift can be considered a sports car.
They rent those at the ring, along with Porsches, but the Suzi is more affordable to rent and if one “bins it” it is 5k euro versus 40k euros.
And the rear end pucker is pretty noteworthy… even in a swift.

In any case they (GM) were not really committed to the Fiero.
 

Frgirard

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Track day cars are for motorsports.
GTs are for touring.

I would rather a Miata for a sports car, but a 5 or 7 series BMW would be great to have.
The BMW might be faster on a track, but it could cost a tone of $ to run it compared to the lighter vehicle.

In ways a Suzuki Swift can be considered a sports car.
They rent those at the ring, along with Porsches, but the Suzi is more affordable to rent and if one “bins it” it is 5k euro versus 40k euros.
And the rear end pucker is pretty noteworthy… even in a swift.

In any case they (GM) were not really committed to the Fiero.
On the forum politics, it comes a time for the Goldwyn point.
On the forum audio, it comes a time for the car point.
 

thorvat

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Track day cars are for motorsports.
GTs are for touring.

I would rather a Miata for a sports car, but a 5 or 7 series BMW would be great to have.
The BMW might be faster on a track, but it could cost a tone of $ to run it compared to the lighter vehicle.

In ways a Suzuki Swift can be considered a sports car.
They rent those at the ring, along with Porsches, but the Suzi is more affordable to rent and if one “bins it” it is 5k euro versus 40k euros.
And the rear end pucker is pretty noteworthy… even in a swift.

In any case they (GM) were not really committed to the Fiero.

So, BMW 5 or 7 are sports car, for track day? I don't think so.. While for M5 it gets tricky to decide between a sports car and a GT it certainly is not so for 7 series. As 7 series is a luxury sedan it is not a grand tourer and certainly not a sports car.

I don't agree that Swift is a sports car unless heavilly upgraded - but the same can be said for pretty much every hatchback.

Anyway, my point was exactly that - unless we agree upon definition of "sports car" we can hardly discuss about them.
 
OP
Tangband

Tangband

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In the Benchmarkmedia page, there is interesting reading about damping factor of drivers - one need more than 100 below 200 Hz , only done good with active crossovers:


 
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Tangband

Tangband

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At the exhibition, in a 4-minute subjective test, the active LS50W sounded better than the passive LS50 :). So I voted "Yes" meaning these KEFs.
What you heard was correct.
 

Thomas_A

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What you heard was correct.
As verified in blind tests after EQ the response? Difference could be due to bass output as measured.
 

MAB

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In the Benchmarkmedia page, there is interesting reading about damping factor of drivers - one need more than 100 below 200 Hz , only done good with active crossovers:
Can you explain further? The paper doesn’t come to this conclusion at all.
 

MAB

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What you heard was correct
As verified in blind tests after EQ the response? Difference could be due to bass output as measured.
I heard both side by side. Agree with Thomas_A, the difference in bass between the two obscures other differences. And, it was totally unscientific so even if I thought I could hear something outside of bass eq, it would have been a figment of my imagination.

I would like to see (and hear) if the newly added resonant notch is discernible between the two:
 

Peluvius

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Same great design engineer, same access to tools, knowledge and abilities they will design a better amp crossover arrangement for an active approach than they will be able to for a passive approach. That is my view. To make any sense of this discussion you must have some things as a constant so comparing a poorly designed active to a well designed passive is not relevant.
 

dualazmak

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Same great design engineer, same access to tools, knowledge and abilities they will design a better amp crossover arrangement for an active approach than they will be able to for a passive approach. That is my view. To make any sense of this discussion you must have some things as a constant so comparing a poorly designed active to a well designed passive is not relevant.

I fully agree with you; really nice comments, I believe.
I learned and experienced your points throughout the long and extensive journey of my multichannel multi-driver multi-way multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio project, (you may find here the latest system setup as of May 30 2022), including the 0.1 msec precision time alignments among all of the SP drivers.
 

MAB

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Same great design engineer, same access to tools, knowledge and abilities they will design a better amp crossover arrangement for an active approach than they will be able to for a passive approach. That is my view. To make any sense of this discussion you must have some things as a constant so comparing a poorly designed active to a well designed passive is not relevant.
Agreed, I would love to see a proper side by side of the active and passive LS50, which would meet your criteria for a good comparison;). I fully expect the active is gonna win, not because there is a difference in the electronic response of the filters, but because of the sheer numbers of filters that can be utilized. Even then, there are cases where passives are a better choice (like the resonant notch Purifi example that @thewas referenced.)

My issue is that this has turned into a black or white argument; passive vs. active. And there are just too many misunderstandings of work (the Benchmark white paper being the latest casualty).
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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Agreed, I would love to see a proper side by side of the active and passive LS50, which would meet your criteria for a good comparison;). I fully expect the active is gonna win, not because there is a difference in the electronic response of the filters, but because of the sheer numbers of filters that can be utilized. Even then, there are cases where passives are a better choice (like the resonant notch Purifi example that @thewas referenced.)

My issue is that this has turned into a black or white argument; passive vs. active. And there are just too many misunderstandings of work (the Benchmark white paper being the latest casualty).
The best is to go out and listen for youself - the ls50wII vs ls50 is as good a comparison can get .
There are real technical benefits below about 200 Hz with an active crossover and directcoupled drivers - no one disputes that.
Allmost all music benefits and gonna sound better because of this fact. This is a clear advantage, and the anectdotical advantages of a high output impedance at higher frequencies with passive crossovers is not proven in every case.
 
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thewas

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There are real technical benefits below about 200 Hz with an active crossover and directcoupled drivers - no one disputes that.
Allmost all music benefits and gonna sound better because of this fact. This is a clear advantage, and the anectdotical advantages of a high output impedance at higher frequencies with passive crossovers is not proven in every case.
Claiming something as a fact, doesn't make it one, both are very comparable as they show small measured differences but the claims for audibility are anecdotal, or can you provide links to some controlled listening comparisons where the frequency response was exactly the same?
 
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MAB

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The best is to go out and listen for youself - the ls50wII vs ls50 is as good a comparison can get .
I guess you didn’t read that I did just that, and the bass is eq’ed differently and it shows up in measurements (as mentioned by multiple members). Also, a central premise of ASR is “go out and listen” is actually not the best. Double blind with exceptionally tight controls are needed. Please go and read if you haven’t.

There are real technical benefits below about 200 Hz with an active crossover and directcoupled drivers - no one disputes that.
Actually, we are trying to tell you that your claim is disputed as stated. It seems you have misunderstood the Purifi and other papers. And perhaps don’t realize that inductors used in woofer crossovers are straight wire below 200 Hz. For instance, the LS50 Meta crossovers in the white paper I posted here yesterday. L1 and L2 are just wires at low frequency.
1662071622507.png

Before you jump to the conclusion that these inductors are responsible for the bass eq differences between the active and passive LS50’s, please follow the Benchmark whitepaper and explicitly calculate the damping factor and frequency impact due to L1 and L2 (you can find ranges of inductor DCR to work with at you favorite parts supplier, please choose iron core inductors. If you want to know why, please read the KEF paper I posted!) You will find the bass response due to the inductors is an order of magnitude lower than the eq differences between the active and passive versions. And those differences are way below audibility. Even with speakers that have horrible impedance, these inductors are a non issue.
Allmost all music benefits and gonna sound better because of this fact. This is a clear advantage, and the anectdotical advantages of a high output impedance at higher frequencies with passive crossovers is not proven in every case.
The notch isn’t anecdotal it’s a real common use case, you can see the notch filter in the LS50 crossover above. Notches are real and incredibly useful since so many great drivers need resonances damped. You just ignore the Purifi paper, since it is inconvenient (not anecdotal). You don’t get to just ignore stuff unless you can actually explain.

See, lots of us (myself included) believe active is in general superior. The problem is that there are many areas where no advantage exists either way, and even areas where passive is better. Ultimately active allows flexibility beyond passive, and the areas where active is disadvantaged are minor in most cases. But you seem bent on the idea that passives are just bad in any implementation, and are challenging these observations with anecdotes (I do think you need to look up that word!)

My biggest issue is a few of us have worked through some of the math for you, put some time into explaining the articles, but you either didn’t read or didn’t understand or just blew off the physics because it didn’t fit your predisposition. Instead you have quoted some stuff out of context and provided zero data, just anecdotes (gosh, you shouldn’t have misused that word, now I can’t avoid it!!!)
 
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