Aboslute best CHEAP DIY speaker

[fineMen]

... think I will go with the "Dayton 4" from Duane Brown... sadly there is not much information, but the "admission costs" are quite low, and there is a Dayton speaker with the same woofer that was reviewed here and it looked quite OK/decent.

You could always say "good for the <put in here some limited resource, money, size ...>"

But would it be good enough for listening to movies, maybe, or even music? There is a limit. Does it actually make sense to have some 5+1 speakers around, but each is just crap, as is with the vast majority (!!) of domestic 'home theatres'?

One doesn't need much science to understand that the 5+1 thing needs a minimum budget to actually work. I won't tell which it is, though.

Alternative: two channels are o/k for watching movies, really, Possible to start with reasonable investment of money, time, especially for cleaning up ;-) after building, for just two mains plus subs--two, makes four?

As You mentioned the "same woofer". It doesn't look quite right regarding its distortion, no, no ... . From the perspective of "good enough" audio there is a lot to be desired to say the least. And as You kind of concluded, no info. Full risk, all the money, wise?

 

[mga2009]

@ROOSKIE

Thanks for taking the time to post. I agree with you. DIY is not for everyone and it does not guarantee "cheap" or "high quality", quite the opposite most of the times... but...

Things to consider for going the DIY, at least for me:
1-. I do enjoy some woodwork and the feeling of self competence of finishing something that works.
2-. I do not live in USA and here in my country, speakers are quite expensive... ie. ELAC b5.2 is USD$380 (including big discount, normally around USD$420).
3-. Sometimes you want to build something for special or exact position, size, looks. ie. I just cant fit a pair of ELAC b5.2 between my couch and the rear wall for surrounds, but what I can do is build a shallower DIY speaker that fits just right.

If I would live in the USA I would just toss everything, and get a nice USB Interface and get 5 JBL LSR305 MKII (plug the ports and make another internal-simple brace) And call it a day.

 

[DanielT]

I know you have built several speaker and subs and obviously like DIY. I am still writing this reply the way I am in case other folks think about DIY are following the convo.

Unless someone really wants the DIY experience (which I do highly recommend) the price point you are at is not offering much of a gain vs retail gear. You might not really save any money.
You would be doing it mainly for enjoyment.
@150-160 a pair, plus some additional costs, the Overnight sensations and C-notes are about as cheap as it gets for DIY.

I do think in the DIY realm, the C-notes are a very nice choice in terms of a nearly complete(box included) pair of speakers for $200. That said, note that a huge part of the C-Note speakers appeal is good bass for the size. Using a sub negates that a bit and definitely running them sealed negates a lot of the C-note design goal appeal. Especially as the design trades efficiency for bass extension.

I built the C-notes and have compared them to several retail speakers. They are okay. East to listen to with okay bass for a small speaker. Need plenty of power as they are really inefficient. Not a huge fan of the highs, they are kind of nasally and lacking detail. Whatever, they are fun enough and satisfying to build if building is satisfying for a peep.
Compared to a few quick retail examples I think the $280(pair) ELAC b5.2 is a better speaker. The $150(pair)Sony SSCS5 is better except bass wise. Without a doubt for my taste they get buried by the JBL 530 which is $240 in USA (what country are you in?)
Sale prices in the US can be crazy. My Sony's were $65 a pair. Just picked up a open box set of KEF q350 for $350. The C-notes do not compare very well to the excellent KEF speakers.
Someone mentioned the REVEL M16 which sound so much more like a hifi/high end speaker than the C-Note it is no comparison at all. Though they cost much more $, I am just trying to relate things here.

With sub bass help, I'd take the Polk XT15 over the C-Note and they are $200a pair - often on sale for $150 and even $99 in the US which is what I paid. With a touch of PEQ they are pretty great. If all 5 of your speakers are the same and require PEQ to correct the speaker you can, of course you won't be able to apply room resonance corrections equally, though you should still be able to get the sub eq'd.

I am not poo pooing DIY. Just putting some perspective. If a person has the time and it sounds fun go for it. I love doing it. I have built speakers I don't love though and they can't be returned and are hard to sell in the gear marketplace.

If a buyer goes up in price one may or may not realize meaningful gains for a small system. If someone was building a "bigger" set-up with really high fidelity aims DIY still poses issues, even though at higher prices some DIY gear is really great, because some is just okay. Plus there is personal preference which I feel is big factor especially when dropping a lot of time and money. Dropping hundreds and then hours or even more on a DIY speaker that you don't love isn't super fun for very many folks and at that point the fun part is reengineering them or repurposing the parts which makes this whole DIY thing into a real hobby( or for the unenthused, a time suck.)

I always say that if the point is to also DIY for fun and adventure then go for it, if it is to save money or to get the best you can for low $$ it may be safer to buy retail on sale or clearance or even full budget prices in some cases are competitive with entry level DIY kits.

anyway,
You do personally like DIY and you live in country where the JBL 530 likely isn't on sale for $240 a pair or similar deals are not to be found. I also realize the point is a very affordable 5.1 system. Hifi/high end sound is not the goal, so cloning the Performa3 line would be to expensive vs the goal. I think to bring it back around for a modest and highly enjoyable HT your original choices of are still the best options currently.

Other options that you (or other DIY interested folks)may not have seen yet if spending a bit more.
$250 pair Zaph ZA5.2 https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-za5.2-tm-2-way-pair/
$282 no boxes/495 with boxes pair SB Micro https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/sb-acoustics-micro-2-way-speaker-kit-pair/
$480 pair no box SB Bromo https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/sb-acoustics-micro-2-way-speaker-kit-pair/
$125 each w baffle/no box S2000 MTM https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-...-series/s2000-speaker-kits/s2000-mtm-kit.html
If the Hivi kits are available in your country maybe check into those.

The old PE design still seem like decent ones.
$100 each for the Classix II kit at PE is another option, they have great bass response according to others(I have never heard them) https://www.parts-express.com/Classix-II-MT-Bookshelf-Speaker-Kit-with-Baffle-Only-300-7110
$200 a pair for the BR-1's, these are a sealed box design with good bass https://www.parts-express.com/BR-1-Kit-Components-300-641

Hopefully you can figure something out.

There is probably a lot in what Kal Rubinson wrote:

"Yes, in fact, in the very early days, you had no choice regardless of your budget. If you could not DIY, you commissioned someone to do it for you. Empty speaker and equipment cabinets were available along with custom cabinetry. My first real speaker had a 12" GE woofer and a 3" RCA tweeter with a network I designed and assembled myself. The cabinet was a floor-standing bass reflex which I bought, unfinished, from River Edge. I was fortunate to have a cousin who finished it for me in satin mahogany."

Most innovative manufacturer / person in HiFi in your country

Seen from a historical perspective. Company and or person. What is your suggestion? Feel free to motivate. It can be a person or company that is well known globally, but it can also be a company or person from your country that is perhaps best known within your country's borders. It would be...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[fineMen]

As You mentioned the "same woofer". It doesn't look quite ...

Quality of design: serial x/overs are prone to elevated intermodulation due to the bass speakers inductance. Especially when drven to the top as with the Dayton 4.

You asked "for the absolute best".

 

[TimW]

I have built the C-Notes and use them with a TV in a large bedroom. For the price I don't think you can get anything with better extension or directivity in the DIY space. I have also modified Pioneer SP-BS22LR speakers using this guide to make Philharmonic Affordable Accuracy Monitors. I like the AAMs the best even though they are limited in bass extension, maybe if the Pioneers are available used in your area you could save money by just modifying them.

 

[mga2009]

Quality of design: serial x/overs are prone to elevated intermodulation due to the bass speakers inductance. Especially when drven to the top as with the Dayton 4.

You asked "for the absolute best".

I understand... so from your POV USD$150 is just too little to get to the most basic requirements for a joyfull experience in your HT/movies/music? Even considering the limited volume of my room?

 

[fineMen]

I understand... so from your POV USD$150 is just too little to get to the most basic requirements for a joyfull experience in your HT/movies/music? Even considering the limited volume of my room?

I'm afraid, yes. A cinema invests in good equipment and gets returns. For them the initial investment isn't too much of a concern, as long as the expected revenue backs it up.

For a private person things are different.

For personal use one might argue, that 5 channel plus sub is either too expensive, or not worth the money due to too limited quality. No returns, experience will be small-ish anyway, an optimal solution is available elsewhere, namely at Your town's cinema. Visited with friends it'll have an other quality to begin with. Back to a cheapy solution, who of the friends would trade the cinema experience against listening at Your home--if there would be enough room to begin with ... and so on.

There's a limit below which speakers just cannot hold up to reasonable expectations. DIY as just copying an obscure design doesn't do either.

 

[TimW]

I'm afraid, yes. A cinema invests in good equipment and gets returns. For them the initial investment isn't too much of a concern, as long as the expected revenue backs it up.

For a private person things are different.

For personal use one might argue, that 5 channel plus sub is either too expensive, or not worth the money due to too limited quality. No returns, experience will be small-ish anyway, an optimal solution is available elsewhere, namely at Your towns cinema. Visited with friends it'll have an other quality to begin with. Back to a cheapy solution, who of the friends would trade the cinema experience against listening at Your home--if there would be enough room to begin with ... and so on.

There's a limit below which speakers just cannot hold up to reasonable expectations. DIY as just copying an obscure design doesn't do either.

Have you ever listened to a pair of C-Notes?

 

[fineMen]

Have you ever listened to a pair of C-Notes?

People today listen to I-phones, and still believe they 'get' what the 'music' is about?

( It is a digital, virtual experience, as opposed to a physical, real one. )

Please don't consider me being insolent. It is about decision making. 5+1 once and for all versus 2+2 with some perspective for later.

You know the rule of deminishing returns. Conversely, from 100$ to 200$ to 300$ there is so much gain, that it may be beneficial to re-evaluate the initial plan of buying a cheapest 5+1 system (reference: BOSE). And additionally going for something unknown ... . It will no way only remotely compare, let alone compete with a real cinema system. This refernce alone, for me, kills it.

 

[Wolf]

Really, the Dayton4 are fantastic! They reap smiles at every DIY event they are presented.

I would not call DIY designs obscure, as there are many talented builders out there providing really solid designs. You really should do your homework and make sure you trust the designer, as there are some that claim performance and fall short.

Anything from these guys or myself should be up to par:
Lou Coraggio/LouC, RIP
Jeff Bagby, RIP
Rick Craig, RIP
Curt Campbell
Jon Marsh
CJD
Paul Carmody
Scott Sehlin/Mudjock
John Hollander
Dave Brown
Roman Bednarek, old but some applicable.
Nick Santorinios
Dan Poinsette/Kerry Arnes

There are more guys out there....

 

[fineMen]

Really, the Dayton4 are fantastic! They reap smiles at every DIY event they are presented.

I would not call DIY designs obscure, as there are many talented builders ...

My advice is still to depart from the el cheapo route. The reasoning can be found above in several posts.
My advice is still to follow an alternative route. Think of the effort to make Your DIY build look bearable, just the looks. It'll take You weeks. Guess from what I know.

Alternative:

• decide for and build decent main speakers, like Cinetor or Disco from Heissmann
• will give You a very good stereo perfomance coming close to Neumann or Genelec etc
• two (sub)woofers are needed the least to cope with room acoustics, can be cheap (50$) 8inch driver in 30L box, tuned to 35Hz
• don't care too much about frequency response with woofers, as You have to equalise them anyway, maybe even +/-10dB

Set this up, find a good arrangement, equalise, get used to it, learn to optimise, relax and enjoy.
Once You may feel the need to play around with 5+1 dolby whatever surround something.

• side channels better have a diffuse sound radiation, treble not that critical, no bass needed
• center channel better has wide, controlled radiation, treble not that critical, no bass needed

Look out for pre-owned speakers. I've got quite decent Canton shoe-boxes for 35$/pair that perfectly meet the requirements for the side channels. Same goes for a center. Or start out with the above mentioned Peerless TC9 to give it a shot.

Maybe You get a better job, win the lottery (good luck!), then the pervious main speakers go to the sides, and You'll see some KEF Blade in front of You.

Take the proud claims of DIYers with a grain of doubt. All mothers love their baby after its first scream ;-) All the best!

ps: I once had, for a few days that fancy looking, best industrial design really, KEF LS50 for 666$ a pair, new! Now I see LS50 pre-owned for about 400$/pair on ebay, the meta version goes for like 600$. Plus woofers, plus equalisation will be perfect. Surround--as I said.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Whether DIY or OTS, not likely to get great results by seeking the lowest price point and spreading your budget thinner. For that matter, the center speaker is important in home theater and, in my experience and many others, it really needs to have good directivity…

So, if you do not have measurements for your speakers of choice, you are taking on more risk. I suspect you know this and so suggest you trust your own instinct. No measurements might be fine if you plan for spending more to fix a potential mistake. Am sure many other members can testify to buyer regret! In small home theater for your own enjoyment, could go with a phantom center and invest more in the other speakers too. To satisfy the DIY itch, build the subwoofer yourself.

While speaker measurements should not be the only criteria, using them as guidance is the only way to get results that are better than average. In any case, since you asked ASR members, you already know this. If you forgo the science, probably wasted your time here!

Happy hunting!

Rick

 

[abdo123]

Someone mentioned the REVEL M16 which sound so much more like a hifi/high end speaker than the C-Note it is no comparison at all. Though they cost much more $, I am just trying to relate things here.

Honestly considering it has a 6.5 inch woofer it's not THAT expensive or super high-end. it's very slightly priced above production grade products with whatever finish is left at the warehouse.

 

[mga2009]

I embrace you comments, and understand you arguments that there is a threshold of price/quality performance to achieve a "basic" point.

But my questions were basically oriented to that same argument... which is... where is the absolute lowest point where price and performance meet? And is this backed up with real data?

I think (hope) that the public knowledge and tools available now, may allow the DIY community to find that point and back it up up with real data. And I do think that the DIY is more flexible than the "Industry", to find this point, even more if you want to find an under 4" speaker that is good (today this market was eaten by soundbars).

I know these speakers will not break any record in bass, distortion or SPL, but please consider that not all of us have the same requirements and demand the same performance (every time).

 

[fineMen]

But my questions were basically oriented to that ...

The I-Phone was already mentioned. You can't go much lower regarding sound-quality. The cost is nil, as there is no alternative. Namely a smart phone with-out stereo(!!) speakers. Price ./. quality meet at the absolute zero. People use it eagerly, hence it is operational.

Point is, though, that Your question doesn't rope in the double-quadrupled number of cost versus effort versus performance versus demand possibilities.

Aboslute best CHEAP DIY /dessert/sneakers/wristwatch/haircut/BBQ sauce​

In short, last comment from my side as a highly experienced DIYer: DIY is only about learning. Cost savings only result from a vast amount of trial and error, mostly. And only if the target is superior in excellence to 99% of the commercial offerings. I've got there. Hence my comment.

 

[mga2009]

The I-Phone was already mentioned. You can't go much lower regarding sound-quality. The cost is nil, as there is no alternative. Namely a smart phone with-out stereo(!!) speakers. Price ./. quality meet at the absolute zero. People use it eagerly, hence it is operational.

Point is, though, that Your question doesn't rope in the double-quadrupled number of cost versus effort versus performance versus demand possibilities.

Aboslute best CHEAP DIY /dessert/sneakers/wristwatch/haircut/BBQ sauce​

Sorry. I don't follow your reply, as english is not my first language.

I guess you are saying that what I am asking is not attainable. Correct?

 

[fineMen]

I guess you are saying that what I am asking is not attainable. Correct?

Your question is ill-posed. So I only could give a general guideline on what *not* to fall for. Of course my perspective is a personal one. Other peoples views might base on differing individual experiences. I was tempted to enrich the discussion by some less confident conclusions. Isn't human conversation all about transferring experiences. My experiences are as told, the conclusions are my own opinion.

 

[DanielT]

[*]two (sub)woofers are needed the least to cope with room acoustics, can be cheap (50$) 8inch driver in 30L box, tuned to 35Hz
[

Well, hm. Maybe but a sensible sub driver / element should have at least (a matter of taste) 10 mm x-max, I think. The purpose of a sub is to pump air, then a decent stroke is needed. Such drivers / elements are not directly very cheap.

Smaller box, more amp power may be needed.There may (observe may) be an increased risk of distortion then.We are much less sensitive to distortion in the sub-frequency range but there are cheap elements that are not directly suitable that are thrown into sub boxes and then you can definitely hear distortion. Especially with increase, higher volume. Muddy, not sharp, blurred, sloppy bass.

Edit:
Speaking of levels of distortion here is a compilation of a number of elements. It is in Swedish but you can see the graphs.
(not me who made that compilation):

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - 3: Distorsion, jämförelser mellan element

 

[TimW]

where is the absolute lowest point where price and performance meet? And is this backed up with real data?

Here is a comparison of 3 different speakers using Spinorama and Distortion measurements from Amir.

Cost per speaker:
Speaker A - $450
Speaker B - $75
Speaker C - $84

Speaker A Score w/sub: 7.7

Speaker B Score w/sub: 6.5

Speaker C Score w/sub: 7.9

Speaker A Distortion @ 86db?

Speaker B Distortion @ 96dB

Speaker C Distortion @ 86dB & 96dB

Clearly there are flaws in every speaker here, no speaker is perfect. You can spend 6 times more for speaker A then speaker B and still be left with audible issues. Whether the cost is worth the improvement is a matter of personal opinion. Also keep in mind, there is not a strong correlation between price and performance in this hobby, just take a look at our speaker review index for proof:

 

[abdo123]

Here is a comparison of 3 different speakers using Spinorama and Distortion measurements from Amir.

Cost per speaker:
Speaker A - $450
Speaker B - $75
Speaker C - $84

Speaker A Score w/sub: 7.7

Speaker B Score w/sub: 6.5

Speaker C Score w/sub: 7.9

Speaker A Distortion @ 86db?

Speaker B Distortion @ 96dB
View attachment 197025

Speaker C Distortion @ 86dB & 96dB
View attachment 197026

Clearly there are flaws in every speaker here, no speaker is perfect. You can spend 6 times more for speaker A then speaker B and still be left with audible issues. Whether the cost is worth the improvement is a matter of personal opinion. Also keep in mind, there is not a strong correlation between price and performance in this hobby, just take a look at our speaker review index for proof:
View attachment 197030

Speaker A becomes 8.0 with the port plugged.