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Aboslute best CHEAP DIY speaker

fineMen

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On paper, agree the Carmody S2000 looks good and thanks for helping get this thread back on track. ... but suggest there may be better choices...
All with similar, or better "score", way cheaper if wood/paint is added in, let alone the work and risk:


And not the least, active:
 

David James

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Overnight sensations or Cnotes would probably be as good as you will get in that price range.

Bagby sopranos maybe but I think they are a bit more.

If you want REALLY CHEAP with a great driver, make a fullrange with the Peerless TC9FD1808. Widely discussed and regarded as the best affordable 3" fullrange driver. You could probably improve it by adding something like the Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 crossed around 3k. Distortion rises below that but above its very good. I used to use a 3" tang band with an old paper 12" woofer that didn't even have a proper crossover and it was quite excellent. Small fullranges have a culty following despite many issues so probably worth a try.
 

Rick Sykora

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Rick, Rick, Rick... why?

1) What makes you think I didn't listen to them "much"? I went back to my reviews to understand why you would think that. Because I distinctly remember listening to them and thinking "wth?". And the measurements showed why. I can't find why you would say what you did and then conclude that I was biased by the measurements. Which leads right into ...
Erin, Erin, Erin, looks like I got your attention, so that part worked. ;)

TBH, I did read your review(s) and suggest it just may be a matter of perspective. From my perspective, you did not discuss listening with any music as you often do. The Volt reviews do not mention music listening and are strongly peppered with references to measurement shortcomings. Just my observation, but thanks for clarifying your position.

2a) I always listen before I measure. Amir does the opposite. He listens first. He even made a video about it*. So, I guess you are gonna have to question all his reviews, too, since he would presumably - by your logic - be "unduly influenced by the measurements". Facts are facts. Fair is fair. ;)
I fence sit this one and can argue either position. As per my stated perspective, blah, blah blah. I think you get it. :cool:
2b) Do we just now ignore the measurements? They're pretty terrible. Even if I hadn't listened to them at all, it doesn't take much to determine that the speaker is going to sound pretty rough. You're implying we should give them a pass if they weren't listened to first/at all.



* (to be clear, I don't really care about anyone's personal methods for listen/measure. I do what works for me. I'm just noting the irony in your statement)

No, but we are talking the very low end of the price spectrum here and measurements are not as likely to be good anyway. I have heard that coax speakers do not measure well but may sound better than they measure. Anyway, the OP was looking for speakers with measurements and you provided some in this case. Thank you for that! I did not endorse the Volts as the "absolute best" (or even stellar). We all know there is no best speaker, but there may be ones better for the application than others.

As for the rest, it is up to the OP to apply his own judgement. At this point, am only offering data for him to consider based on what he has stated to date.
 
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Rick Sykora

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All with similar, or better "score", way cheaper if wood/paint is added in, let alone the work and risk:


And not the least, active:

I think this point has been made (and happen to agree with the general premise), but has rejected by the OP, so why persist?
 

fineMen

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I think this point has been made (and happen to agree with the general premise), but has rejected by the OP, so why persist?
Because the OP is not the only addressee of my comment. It is for the public, not just for the OP.

DIY is worth the effort only for special demand, new ideas and for people who already learnt a thing or two by analysing commercial offerings.
 

Rick Sykora

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Because the OP is not the only addressee of my comment. It is for the public, not just for the OP.

So rather than continue to post publicly, suggest you start a direct conversation.

Not sure he will be any more receptive but will be less clutter for others.

Thanks!
 

motomech

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Rick, thanks for the welcome, been lurking awhile.
I't's funny you should mention the Volts, I put together a LCR consisting of 2) Volt 6's and an 8 center when they came out and had them in the frt. row of my ht system. Never gave them much thought other than were super efficient and then I read Erin's reviews and to tell the truth, his results kind of shook me up! It got me thinking about how I had drifted away from my passion for good sound and I had got to the point where where I was just using my system to "fill up space". With my head cleared of the cobwebs, I listened to the Volts afresh and they sounded like crap!(but the teenage kid in the neighborhood I gave them to loves them).
No slight to Matt Grant, in fact I'm currently playing around w/ a pr. of C-notes, converting them to Matt's MT design (they use the same box and woofers). If I like what I hear, I'll do the Nexus right with some P.E. boxs.
 

fineMen

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So rather than continue to post publicly, suggest you start a direct conversation.

Not sure he will be any more receptive but will be less clutter for others.

Thanks!
In case I got it right, Your logic twists my point. Let me rephrase my point: The question is public, it is answered public. Once the question got public, it doesn't relate to the original poster anymore. It stands for itself. And so do the answers.

Especially, once the OP is finished with his decision making, that doesn't mean hat the topic is finished for all.
 

Rick Sykora

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In case I got it right, Your logic twists my point. Let me rephrase my point: The question is public, it is answered public. Once the question got public, it doesn't relate to the original poster anymore. It stands for itself. And so do the answers.

Especially, once the OP is finished with his decision making, that doesn't mean hat the topic is finished for all.

True enough. and thanks for clarifying what you meant. I did not intend to twist your logic.

Not sure who you think is still interested or will read past the off topic posts on this thread. If you are seeking that your opinion be considered more widely, a new (and more appropriately titled) thread would be more effective. As someone with experience with the ASR membership, I am fairly confident your opinion is in the majority (at least at this price point). It has been stated frequently across the forum, but would be more useful to consolidate it into a general thread and one with greater audience than DIY Audio area. If you look at the Forum stats, DIY is a very small portion of the ASR traffic.
 
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M4BGRINGO

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I just finished building these little bookshelf speakers, though they do weigh 25 pounds each! They are the Apollo speakers from DIYSG. They aren't "cheap" but rarely is cheap stuff good.

qoeKCsn.jpg
 

frascati

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After analyzing more diy builds than I'd like to admit to I had finally settled on what seemed the best 6.5 inch(ish) MT value for the dollar in the

From the designer Michael Chua....

"It has been such a long time since I last heard the Peerless 830874. Now that I worked with all the other midwoofers consecutively, it’s apparent the 830874 is in a class of her own. The clarity in the vocals is crystal clear. On top of that, I can make out the layers in the soundstage, where the backup singers are etc. As for the bass, it was an eye opener. There’s upper bass, lower bass and excellent dynamics. No bloated bass, no bloom in the bass notes. This kind of quality is normally found in more expensive drivers like the Seas ER18RNX which cost double that of the 830874.

The Cardinal-XT2 is my kind of speaker. This is how I like my music to sound like. For those contemplating which model to build, I strongly suggest the Cardinal-XT2. She is near high-end level. "


160 dollars for all four drivers.

.....only to finally discover that the peerless was no longer available. I'm aware that peerless has gone through some ownership, branding, sourcing, etc issues. But what motivates a company to kill off a broadly respected product? It's not as if it's technology is dated.

Back to the search.
 
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frascati

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Yes. That is the one. No US distributor I could find still stocks it and two told me it was discontinued. Perhaps they only meant that these distributors we're discontinuing it...I don't know. But i can't get it here.
 

Duane Brown

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I know this post is old. But it is fun to run across people talking about my design (Dayton 4).

I have updated the blog about it with measurements and added another that is more geared to speaker builders.

 
OP
M

mga2009

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I know this post is old. But it is fun to run across people talking about my design (Dayton 4).

I have updated the blog about it with measurements and added another that is more geared to speaker builders.

Excellent! Thanks Duane!

Have you thought about sending a sample to Erin from Erins Audio Corner? A high resolution of the Dayton 4 with the Klippel might shed some light on possible XO improvements, thus bringing this excellent&cheap speaker to another level
 

Duane Brown

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Excellent! Thanks Duane!

Have you thought about sending a sample to Erin from Erins Audio Corner? A high resolution of the Dayton 4 with the Klippel might shed some light on possible XO improvements, thus bringing this excellent&cheap speaker to another level
I have thought about it. But that is as far as it has gone. I should reach out to him...
 
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mga2009

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I have thought about it. But that is as far as it has gone. I should reach out to him...
You can also send it to out host, Amir. It all depends where are you located and how much time does Amir and/or Erin have.

AFAIK Amir is located in WA and Erin in AL? I really don't remember exactly.

Cheers and thanks for your design!
 

motomech

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Here's some of the "affordable" kit and plan based speakers I have built and owned over the years;
Recently I had to down-size my Abouriou MTM towers;
and they became a pair of "The Girl From Ipanema" speakers by Paul Carmody and I choose to go for this design for several reasons. They are;
1)I could use the P.E. .23 cu/ft boxs - While the Seas tweeter, Dayton woofer and cross-over parts have doubled in price during the 10 years since I built the Abourious, these boxs are still the best deal in DIY. Being 3/4" MDF, they really don't need any sound barrier material and lacking any bracing, they have plenty of room for X-overs. And at $27 ea., they go a long way to keep your project in the budget range.
2) The "Ipanema's" are a sealed design - This adds greatly to versatility in placement
and saves on the port tubes (every little bit helps:).
3) They have a very simple low-count X-overs (5 componets for ea. speaker). This really helps keep costs down, although they do use a big air-core inductor (2.2mH), which are kinda pricey.
I think at low to mid volumes, they sound better than the Abourious, a little more engaging when in a more near-field position. The RS150 are known for their clarity on voices (Paul considers it a HT speaker, in 2008, he said; "the "Ipanema" had incredible midrange and treble balance, which made for very clear and discernible movie watching. And yes, it was voiced to be placed up against a wall.") The RS150 is also known for it's dislike for excursion @ low freq.s and it won't, of course, play as low or as loud as the MTM towers. I knew the 8 Ohm MT would be less efficient than the 4 Ohm MTM, but the amount of extra gain needed to reach the same levels surprised me.
Anyhow, the pair (assuming new drivers) came to $415, not including binding posts, wires, x-over boards and finishing materials.

The original Aviatrix MT and MTM by Curt Campbell - I debated listing these as it seems the Parts Express Kits using the new RST28F tweeter have some issues. Erin's review of the Sambas;
I have been perplexed about the RST28f since it came out. Vance Dickerson thoughly measured it early on and thought it looked pretty good. Others measured it and compared it to the original RS28F and opinions varied, there were mentions of QC issuses. The Late-Great Jeff Bagby did a dirt (carpet) floor measurement and was going to use it as a replacement for the RS28A in his Continuum 2-ways, but ended up switching to Morel CAT308's without explanation. Dan Marx worked w/ it in his "Dayton Reference 2-way MTM Center Channel" and it proved to be difficult.
But unlike the DA Wave and Samba, Curt himself redesigned the X-over and it retains it's low X-over count and a low, low X-over point of 1400 Hz.
$300 pr.(kit includes acusta-stuf and gold binding posts).

The Nexus by Matt Grant - This was an interesting build. Like many, I bought the C-notes when they were $100, but to my ear, they couldn't quite cut is as desktops so I tried them in my HT system, but my surrounds are up high and I felt what directivity the wave guide offered worked against what I was looking for in that application. I knew the Dayton DS135 5" woofer was well thought of (Mike Chua @ Amp-Labs among others), so I thought if I could re-purpose those drivers I could recoup 3/4th of the cost of the C-notes. Hence, the Nexus.
Matt's well documented build info for the entire family of Nexus speakers is avail here;
www.hificircuit.com/community/threads/project-nexus-a-timbre-matched-family-of-hi-fi-ht-speakers.319/
Again, I used the P.E. boxes and his design specifies the Dayton ND28F, a size up from the C-note's ND25FW-4. This allowed a lower X-over of 2100 Hz., which along with the sturdy box, eliminates the resonance issues of the C-notes.
Cost, $400 ($450 w/ Matt's X-over boards, binding posts and acusta-fill).

Ranking and recap;
3) The Nexus. A very "balanced" speaker, it's obvious that Matt put a lot of thought and effort into the Nexus family X-over designs (even revising the MT once) and his results no doubt are the best these budget Dayton drivers can sound. But it comes at a price, X-over complexity and resulting component costs. At what point does it make more sense to start w/ better drivers and (hopefully) achive equal or better results w/ a lower X-over count?
Note: The DS135 in a large (for the woofer size) ported box plays very well down low, the best bass of this group, but in the end, I don't think the plastic ND tweeter can match the full size metal tweeters of the other two.
Pierre has the Nexus MT and MTM's in his data base;

2) The Aviatrix. Of all the speakers I have owned for a lenght of time, these are the only ones I have never pulled out of service. The ledgendary RS28F tweeter is just so engaging. I don't think the RST28 can ever sound as good, but can we trust it would be close? When Curt revised the Aviatrix's X-over, his comment was, "It sounded surprising good." (A man of few words). While there's plenty out there about the originals, there's not much about the new versions (I would love to see Amir or Erin measure one).
At $300 for a pr. of MTM speakers with 5 1/4" woofers and full size metal tweeters, I think these are the best deal in "kit" speakers.
Of course, these are a little big for standmounts, but for a "built-in" application like a bookcase, they would be naturals w/ their sealed enclosures. The only thing that bothers me about this this kit is that P.E. won't sell a single for a 3) MTM frt. line for HT. I suspose one could buy this kit and cannibalize one of the MTM's to make a pair of MT's and a MTM. Curt's X-over design for the MT is avail. and uses many of the same X-over conponents. Again using the P.E. boxes (a little big, but I think they would be ok ). A MT / MTM / MT trio would be around $500 in parts.

1) The Girl from Ipanema. It may surprise some that I think drivers and designs from 10 or 15 years ago could be so good, But I would ask, have budget DIY speakers become any better? Of course there are newer and better drivers, but their prices precude them from being anything that could be thought of as budget.
There has been quite a few designs w/ a Seas 27tdfc (and variants)/RS 28f option and designers and builders seem split as to which one they perfer. Personaly, I think the Dayton sounds better, but not by much.
Given that, and my opinion that the Reference Series woofers are much nicer than the ND units in every way, build quality, looks and tone, I rank "The Girls" #1 here. Although both it and the "Avia." use alum. cones, there's something about the ND140's that never let me forget that they are alum., where-as the RS does not.
If someone was to ask me what are the best sounding DIY speakers that can be built for $400, I would say these. Actually, I would say that at the very least, w/ the demise of the Swans kits, I think they would probably be competative w/ anything that could be built in the $400 to $450 range.

Final thoughts.
Tools - The Ipanemas and Nexus speakers require rebating the drivers, but I get by w/ a $50 router and two bits from Harbour Frieght and a circle jig, so this shouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker. Heck, w/ these sm. enclosures, clamps might be concidered optional.

Lastly, I have mentioned four designers here by name who have been always willing to help and there are others. Without their selfless contributions, I for one, would probably be listening to bottom of the line Polks from Best Buy today. We owe them a debt of gratitude.
 
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Wolf

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I really would emplore you to use damping materials, despite what you feel about the thickness of the material. At least a half inch layer of open cell foam can go a long way to mitigate box resonances. At the very minimum, a good handful of stuffing would be a great place to start.
 
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