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Aboslute best CHEAP DIY speaker

abdo123

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and still be left with audible issues.
I'm very curious to know what do you mean with audible issues.

That measurement was taken at 96dB for speaker A.

So for something to be playing at that level at 1KHz, then the level would 106dB at 100Hz for music. that's exceptionally loud for a lot of people, even on peaks. Perhaps that was the best compromise in Revel's eyes. At the end of the day they do blind listening tests for all of their speakers.
 

TimW

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I'm very curious to know what do you mean with audible issues.

That measurement was taken at 96dB for speaker A.

So for something to be playing at that level at 1KHz, then the level would 106dB at 100Hz for music. that's exceptionally loud for a lot of people, even on peaks. Perhaps that was the best compromise in Revel's eyes. At the end of the day they do blind listening tests for all of their speakers.
I don't think harmonic distortion is all that important compared to frequency response. If you look at the Estimated in-room response from Amir's review you will see a slight hump at around 1000hz, a slight dip around 2500hz and another slight hump around 7000hz. These are minor in amplitude but broad in the frequencies they affect which makes them more audible. Then there's the obvious issue with that big hump at just over 100hz. I'm sure that hump could sound very good in some rooms but could be boomy in others and might make subwoofer integration more difficult.

Now I'm not saying this speaker (Revel M16) isn't very good sounding, I would bet that it is, but clearly it is not perfect. If there were no audible flaws then why would Revel make the M106? Or the M126Be? Or the Salons for that matter? With a company that makes objectively good products and has logical product line differentiation, you do get better performance when you pay more. But of course you don't necessarily get a commensurate increase in performance for the amount spent, and there are probably plenty of people that would consider moving up the Revel line from the M16 a waste of money. There are also people that could be satisfied with the C-Note and consider the M16 to be beyond the point of diminishing returns. Keep in mind that you could get 3 C-Note kits (6 speakers) for the price of one finished M16.
 

abdo123

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I don't think harmonic distortion is all that important compared to frequency response. If you look at the Estimated in-room response from Amir's review you will see a slight hump at around 1000hz, a slight dip around 2500hz and another slight hump around 7000hz. These are minor in amplitude but broad in the frequencies they affect which makes them more audible. Then there's the obvious issue with that big hump at just over 100hz. I'm sure that hump could sound very good in some rooms but could be boomy in others and might make subwoofer integration more difficult.

Now I'm not saying this speaker (Revel M16) isn't very good sounding, I would bet that it is, but clearly it is not perfect. If there were no audible flaws then why would Revel make the M106? Or the M126Be? Or the Salons for that matter? With a company that makes objectively good products and has logical product line differentiation, you do get better performance when you pay more. But of course you don't necessarily get a commensurate increase in performance for the amount spent, and there are probably plenty of people that would consider moving up the Revel line from the M16 a waste of money. There are also people that could be satisfied with the C-Note and consider the M16 to be beyond the point of diminishing returns. Keep in mind that you could get 3 C-Note kits (6 speakers) for the price of one finished M16.

It's just that when you say issue, i thought something would audibly stand out.

the 100Hz hump disappears when you close the port which is why the score raises by 0.3 points like i shared.

8.0 for a passive speaker with a sub is phenomenal. I would even go out of my way to say that that's as good as it gets.
 

TimW

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8.0 for a passive speaker with a sub is phenomenal. I would even go out of my way to say that that's as good as it gets.
Well if that's as good as it gets then I guess the OP has no choice but to spend $2,250 on 5 of them for his surround sound. He could actually get them from Crutchfield right now for $1,732.50! But wait there is a new kid on the block that is even gooder than as good as it gets. It's the March Audio Sointuva which scores 8.5 with sub! Only $12,414.60 USD for 6 speakers and I'm sure he could recoup some of that by selling one.

Then again the OP doesn't live in the US and says new speakers are very expensive where he lives. And he said he likes to DIY. And he said he didn't want to spend very much for this surround sound system he's putting together. In fact he asked what is the absolute best CHEAP DIY speaker he could build. I only brought the M16 into this discussion as an example of a great commercial design for objective comparison to two CHEAP DIY speakers that he might find interesting.
 

abdo123

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Well if that's as good as it gets then I guess the OP has no choice but to spend $2,250 on 5 of them for his surround sound. He could actually get them from Crutchfield right now for $1,732.50! But wait there is a new kid on the block that is even gooder than as good as it gets. It's the March Audio Sointuva which scores 8.5 with sub! Only $12,414.60 USD for 6 speakers and I'm sure he could recoup some of that by selling one.

Then again the OP doesn't live in the US and says new speakers are very expensive where he lives. And he said he likes to DIY. And he said he didn't want to spend very much for this surround sound system he's putting together. In fact he asked what is the absolute best CHEAP DIY speaker he could build. I only brought the M16 into this discussion as an example of a great commercial design for objective comparison to two CHEAP DIY speakers that he might find interesting.
Point taken, i apologise for wasting your time.
 

fineMen

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Well, hm. Maybe but a sensible sub driver / element should have at least (a matter of taste) 10 mm x-max, I think.
And then it should be dirt cheap.

Here is a comparison of 3 different speakers using Spinorama and Distortion measurements ...
Model "B" looks reasonable, when equalised and if crossed over to a woofer at 200Hz--two hundred.

Again, I don't like to be seen as arrogant, because I'm not. But, as an enthusiast, who actually after a lot of fails has a satisfying stereo system, I dare to ask how cheap one can go. There is a limit somewhere. I still argue that deciding for 5+1 surround with subsequently less budget for the individual speakers is critical. Especially if there is a lot of effort and risk with DIY to be expected.

Two caveats from the real world:
China made speakers are as cheap as it gets, DIY cannot do cheaper for a given standard. Like it or not, be honest.
Every home surround system has to compete implicitly with real and serious cinema installations. Which, like it or not, sets the bar to a level not attainable by even costly self-made systems from just beginners. Be honest.

One positive message:
After many builds, with a firm theoretical background in engineering, mathematics (calculus is the absolute minimum), physics, physiology maybe, one may get to some excellent, still cost-effective results. Perhaps the cost for getting there isn't that high, if one starts with analysing and re-using outdated commercial offerings taken from the preowned market.
 
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DanielT

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Here are a few different budget elements that which seems good. Good in themselves. Especially in relation to the low price of them but then it's important to do something meaningful with them:


It is important to get it right. Take cheap, good and popular:

Peerless BC25TG15-04

The data Peerless presents is measured at:

"IEC baffle is a flat board, 135 cm wide, 165 cm high with driver center offset 15 cm to one side and 22.5 cm towards the top from the baffle center."

If it is placed in the wrong box / baffle it will lead to:

"Well, the depression at 2.6kHz creates a lot of issues in the crossover region. The Red plot in Fig 3 is horrible when the tweeter is crossed at 2.2kHz at 24dB / oct. This is the effect of what is called Baffle Edge Diffraction."

See the graphs here:
(to reduce those problems, waveguide can be part of the solution)


Tip: This one also seems interesting:



Edit:
There is a lot to think about, if it is to be good sound/HiFi, as several in the thread pointed out BUT as long as you or you have fun, it is peace and joy. :) Personally, I stick to simpler DIY projects due to lack of knowledge to create something really good. To make it sound I can manage (but anyone can do that). Make it sound good, maybe with a little luck I can fix that. Make it sound really good? Not a chance I can handle, but I still do it because it's fun and I do not have such high demands on my DIY. In addition, homemade food tastes best, so I have the absolutely most important parameter to make it sound good: I imagine it myself. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm just fooling myself and no one else.:)
 
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fineMen

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Here are a few different budget elements that which seems good. Good in themselves. Especially in relation to the low price of them but then it's important to do something meaningful with them:
... as long as you or you have fun, it is peace and joy. :)
The not so rare case of stumbling into DIY, believing prevalent hype around stunningly cheap 'n easy designs might get people into eternal fiddling. "As long as you or you have fun, it is peace and joy." Absolutely! Alas, I personally went through a wide valley of frustration in between, and could only cope with it by being overconfident regarding my very competence. I burnt money, and not the least time so much, that I actually could have bought me some commercial stuff instead, say that iconic KEF Blade for instance. Was it worth it? If I knew before, I possibly would have decided differently, me thinks. cc
 

DanielT

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For example, if you can get hold of magnets (preferably neodymium) at a good price, you can try this:


If you also have access to a few different machines, for example a plasma cutter, you can make these, as you see in this thread:

 

fineMen

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If you also have access to a few different machines, for example a plasma cutter, you can make these, ...
Who has the tools and skill to accomplish the task in what time? And still it isn't actually cheap. The build is an exception, not a general example.

The least, maybe, is to question if the result is desirable. For the builder of course, but can the performance be had by simpler means, and even better? Better not to ask, right?

No bad feelings :rolleyes:
 

Rick Sykora

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Cool discussion, but has recently gone way off topic.

These more involved projects are where DIY can show greater value. The topic deserves it own thread though.

Also, suggest the OP title should be improved to focus on the owner’s true goal rather than be misleading and misspelled.

Thanks!

Rick
 
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Ericglo

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Really, the Dayton4 are fantastic! They reap smiles at every DIY event they are presented.

I would not call DIY designs obscure, as there are many talented builders out there providing really solid designs. You really should do your homework and make sure you trust the designer, as there are some that claim performance and fall short.

Anything from these guys or myself should be up to par:
Lou Coraggio/LouC, RIP
Jeff Bagby, RIP
Rick Craig, RIP
Curt Campbell
Jon Marsh
CJD
Paul Carmody
Scott Sehlin/Mudjock
John Hollander
Dave Brown
Roman Bednarek, old but some applicable.
Nick Santorinios
Dan Poinsette/Kerry Arnes

There are more guys out there....

Has anyone heard if Rick Craig's designs are going to be available in the future?
 

DanielT

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Cool discussion, but has recently gone way off topic.

These more involved projects are where DIY can show greater value. The topic deserves it own thread though.

Also, suggest the OP title should be improved to focus on the owner’s true goal rather than be misleading and misspelled.

Thanks!

Rick
It fluttered away from my side I admit it and I am a bit OT even now, but still relatively in line with OP issues:

Depending on level of knowledge. If you are a complete beginner I would say:

1.Proven, tested, measured developed good DIY kit. Produced by someone or some knowledgeable people.

2. Just to try and see if you think it's fun, something cheap and easy. For example, mentioned earlier in the thread


Only the one in a box.Small full-range speaker.If after the test of building a small full-range speaker you come to the conclusion that this was nothing for me well then you have at least tested and not lost any large sums of money. BUT if you think it's fun and rewarding after the test build go ahead, tc9 you have just add a suitable tweeter and bass driver, create a three-way speaker.:)

3. DIY Subwoofer. Choose sensible sub driver (good ability to pump air, decently low distortion), sealed box (for simplicity). Skip filling / stuffing but proper bracing, see:


4.Well then it is the sky that is the limit. Depends on how much you want to learn, invest time and money in everything needed.:)
 
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fineMen

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It fluttered away from my side I admit ...
The TC9 poses an incredible amount of best engineering packed together into dirt cheap, unrivaled excellence. Its design is of stellar brilliance, close to superstition. I mean it.

But, to exploit its merits needs a way deeper understanding than screwing it into some, with automated guidance, calculated box?!

I currently use a pair of Canton Fonum 251, bought for 35$, both. They are x/o'ed @ 180Hz to a pair of JBL2206 in 50L each, tuned to 35Hz, bought for a massive 130$ each used, all e/q'ed to HarmanS tilted frequency response in-room.

Yes, the Cantons climb to about 0,5% of distortion @90dB/1m/1kHz, but the musical foundation with the particular arrangement is @around 200Hz well defined, clean, shows muscle, convincing it is. No intermodulation to speak of, just clarity.

The arrangement described substitutes an even better design that rests in my shed. I cannot afford the time to saw, grind and finish the already glued boxes, because to clean-up the dirt will take me days of argument with myself.

Why don't You start out by investigating what comes out of commercial offerings that can be had for virtually free?
 

Rick Sykora

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Has anyone heard if Rick Craig's designs are going to be available in the future?

Am willing to help anyone that bought one of Rick's speakers or kits but enquired about doing more formally and did not get a response.

The website has been shuttered for months and Facebook page has no new news. Sad to say but appears he had no business continuity plan. Clearly an indication that he thought he was going to be around longer. :oops:
 

AudioAaron

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There's published variants for the OS. You can run TMM up front, TM rears, and I believe I've seen a center channel. Seems like the way to go for a proper 5.1 IMO.
 

fineMen

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I currently use a pair of Canton Fonum 251, bought for 35$, both. They are
I owe You data. This is at about 3m distance in a 10x5x7m^3 room, level is true, stereo. The HD2 peak is from my lute, which is resonating in that range--I don't bother to pack it away or mute it. True love ... . Watch the exceptionally low distortion in bass. That trusty JBL 2206 competes well with any contemporary model.

Only caveat is some irregular directivity in the range of 2kHz, where I have compromised direct sound (1..2dB) in favour of in-room response. It doesn't kill it. though.

Bild_2022-04-06_135227.png
 
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motomech

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I've read thru this entire thread and I'm still not clear what the topic is, but based solely on the question the header topic asks, I think there is a definitive answer, the Carmody S2000 MT/MTM from;
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-audio-speaker-kits/home-audio-size/home-audio-bookshelf.html
It's total finished cost may not be the "Cheapest" (I prefer least expensive, cheap denotes lack of quality), but it excels in three areas that make it a value leader;
1)Performance - On page 4 of Amirm's speaker review, Maiky76 in the process of EQ'ing the S2000 compares it to the Revel M105;
"With EQ on Both speakers:
Very close. Not sure wether the Carmody will play as loud/cleanly though.
The M105 looks smoother and seems to have a better LW..."
High praise indeed.
2)Ease of assembly - The flat-pack is very precisely cut and being diminutive in size, I didn't use clamps or screws, just Titebond II and painter's blue tape.
3)Appearance - Baltic birch, this what sets this kit apart. Assuming anyone one looking for "Cheapest DIY speakers" is not going to have much interest in finishing MDF cabs, finishing the S2000's can be as little as sanding smooth and applying some oil, all w/ no MDF dust!
As someone who is all about budget DIY speaker kits, I have them scattered about 2 houses and, IMO, the OS's and C-notes don't come close to the S2000's. My 8 year old Aviatrix's (Aviatrices ?) are on par, the Carmody's having the better woofers, while the RS28F's of the Aviatrix are still hard to beat as a budget tweeter.
 
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Rick Sykora

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I've read thru this entire thread and I'm still not clear what the topic is, but based solely on the question the header topic asks, I think there is a definitive answer, the Carmody S2000 MT/MTM from;
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-audio-speaker-kits/home-audio-size/home-audio-bookshelf.html
It's total finished cost may not be the "Cheapest" (I prefer least expensive, cheap denotes lack of quality), but it excels in three areas that make it a value leader;
1)Performance - On page 4 of Amirm's speaker review, Maiky76 in the process of EQ'ing the S2000 compares it to the Revel M105;
"With EQ on Both speakers:
Very close. Not sure wether the Carmody will play as loud/cleanly though.
The M105 looks smoother and seems to have a better LW..."
High praise indeed.
2)Ease of assembly - The flat-pack is very precisely cut and being diminutive in size, I didn't use clamps or screws, just Titebond II and painter's blue tape.
3)Appearance - Baltic birch, this what sets this kit apart. Assuming anyone one looking for "Cheapest DIY speakers" is not going to have much interest in finishing MDF cabs, finishing the S2000's can be as little as sanding smooth and applying some oil, all w/ no MDF dust!
As someone who is all about budget DIY speaker kits, I have them scattered about 2 houses and, IMO, the OS's and C-notes don't come close to the S2000's. My 8 year old Aviatrix's (Aviatrices ?) are on par, the Carmody's having the better woofers, while the RS28F's of the Aviatrix are still hard to beat as a budget tweeter.

Welcome to ASR!

On paper, agree the Carmody S2000 looks good and thanks for helping get this thread back on track. Having built the S2000 for Amir's testing and was unable to sell them afterwards, I can say they are a decent speaker, but suggest there may be better choices...

First, the OP is going for a HT app and the S2000 is not a very sensitive speaker. Having listened to a few of Paul's speaker and read about his voicing, likely they were voiced more for music. Since you brought up diysoundgroup though, you reminded me that they do have some very appropriate designs for HT (if you can find them in stock). None of the have been tested here but Erin tested the Volt-6 and Volt-8. The results are not stellar but does not appear he listened to them much and may have been unduly influenced by the measurements.
 

hardisj

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but Erin tested the Volt-6 and Volt-8. The results are not stellar but does not appear he listened to them much and may have been unduly influenced by the measurements.

Rick, Rick, Rick... why?

1) What makes you think I didn't listen to them "much"? I went back to my reviews to understand why you would think that. Because I distinctly remember listening to them and thinking "wth?". And the measurements showed why. I can't find why you would say what you did and then conclude that I was biased by the measurements. Which leads right into ...

2a) I always listen before I measure. Amir does the opposite. He listens first. He even made a video about it*. So, I guess you are gonna have to question all his reviews, too, since he would presumably - by your logic - be "unduly influenced by the measurements". Facts are facts. Fair is fair. ;)

2b) Do we just now ignore the measurements? They're pretty terrible. Even if I hadn't listened to them at all, it doesn't take much to determine that the speaker is going to sound pretty rough. You're implying we should give them a pass if they weren't listened to first/at all.



* (to be clear, I don't really care about anyone's personal methods for listen/measure. I do what works for me. I'm just noting the irony in your statement)
 
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