$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Drengur]

Here are some early Sketchup-snapshots and some pictures. The room is still not 100% done. Will add some more lighting and better chairs and some more stuff.
Measurements are taken with all the stuff in the room as in the pictures.

Kan jag komma på besök? It really looks great btw, I am sure it will sound amazing.

 

[Mikaels_]

Thank you for sharing!

This exemplifies why we shouldn't buy into product hype, but rather try to understand the physics instead so that we can make informed decisions to suit both purpose and budget. Your room is likely far beyond the realm of any normal audiophiles' and isn't exactly the best place for a W371 to shine, but it serves the purpose as an example of what you can achieve with far less money by understanding the physics.

Even though the techno-fest in the W371 is mostly wasted in your room, you still benefit from the distributed woofers in height as well as the capacity and extension increase.

agreed 100%. I should add also that my room is designed with the special focus of being like a surgical scope to "see" into how music is made. To highlight all its nuances, timbres, and how all sounds were put together into a musical piece during its mixing process. And so for that purpose it works really well.

On the other hand - In being so, it is quite different to what I would call a typical "audiophile" listening space. Compared to such a room, my room will be perceived as sterile and lacking of sense of sound envelopment and engagement/"feeling".
For pure listening I would have designed the room with significantly different impulse response in mind. With a higher RT60 (if we can even call it RT60 in such small space. I let the acoustics experts argue about that ). So for pure listening and enjoyment I tend to add some EQ's to the otherwise very flat frequency response to make the room sound "nicer". That is actually altering the source, but it does bring back some of the otherwise more recognisable queues from more "normal" listening spaces, and thus to my ears it sounds more pleasing and attractive.

 

[Mikaels_]

I guess they are not the actual building outer walls, otherwise there would be possible moisture/mold risk from this? Or is there some plastic behind the inner walls etc? Dunno much about these, just gathering info if I ever redo my basement..

The sketchup I attached do not show the actual outer walls.

But indeed,
If looking at the computer screen, the left wall is actually an outer wall. The rest are inner walls.
We designed the inner shell to be ventilated towards that left outer wall by means of active ventilation, and we built additional framing to keep the glass fibers at a distance from that wall to allow air to flow less restricted. I am hoping that reduces the risk for mold. The same fan ventilates the whole room. It's located in the room behind the studio, and sucks air out of the room. The air inlet is near the door on the other side, and allows air to flow from the rest of the building into the room via a few silencers, so that I can play loudly without disturbing others.

 

[Mikaels_]

Kan jag komma på besök? It really looks great btw, I am sure it will sound amazing.

Självklart. Anytime! Bara kul! Jag bor i Göteborg

 

[MKR]

DIY can be great for the right reasons. @MKR if your goals and priorities are still what were stated early on, and should come in a package that’s end-game and within a $30K budget, and you’ve no prior building experience OR a brother-in-law whose (1) life you’ve recently saved and (2) happens to be both a world-class carpenter and acoustical engineer, I suggest sticking to your shopping list. If you wind up with buyer’s remorse in the end of your present role on this thread, I expect it will be for room / layout / component issues, rather than “Could've done better mySELF!” Grin.

@benanders Thank you sir, really appreciate your thoughtful comments. To be clear, when considering the DIY route, I never had/have intention to do any of the design or build myself. Rather, what I was asking in the DIY thread was if a public domain design existed that I could then hire a carpenter to build. All with the intent to save some money (not that I am trying to be cheap, but money is money and I would like to retire some day ). As I stated before and seems it was missed, I do not have the time or capability to take on such an endeavor. While the other DIY thread has been excellent and some great advice given, I have not seen any DIY designs suggested that would necessarily equal those on my short list. Maybe equal, but by no means exceed. And for all the trouble I would experience I am sure, by going down such a path, seems indeed the ROI is just not there. Maybe I will reconsider DIY again in the future, but for now I stay the course on my quest with the retail side.

 

[MKR]

so what happened to the revel audition back a couple of months?? fall through??

@airgas1998 Still going to happen! “Life“ just keeps getting in the way and delaying things a bit

 

[benanders]

@benanders Thank you sir, really appreciate your thoughtful comments. To be clear, when considering the DIY route, I never had/have intention to do any of the design or build myself. Rather, what I was asking in the DIY thread was if a public domain design existed that I could then hire a carpenter to build. All with the intent to save some money (not that I am trying to be cheap, but money is money and I would like to retire some day ). As I stated before and seems it was missed, I do not have the time or capability to take on such an endeavor. While the other DIY thread has been excellent and some great advice given, I have not seen any DIY designs suggested that would necessarily equal those on my short list. Maybe equal, but by no means exceed. And for all the trouble I would experience I am sure, by going down such a path, seems indeed the ROI is just not there. Maybe I will reconsider DIY again in the future, but for now I stay the course on my quest with the retail side.

Gotcha, @MKR . Indeed, I didn’t focus on that. I think those intents are outside the traditional bounds of DIY (more bespoke / custom). Most of the guys on diyAudio do an impressive amount of research, trial-error, tooling, software manipulation, etc., and none of the successful ones land on anything “end game” by predetermination. That’s largely an incompatible mindset with the spirit of DIY.
And many (most?) of them do it for a sense of fun/satisfaction, or because they simply have more time x desire, than money. Pay someone(s) else for that sort of work, and cost goes up fast. See the posts on ASR comparing two mid-sized KEF models made in China vs. UK. Big difference in cost between models seems more reflected in origin (salary/hourly wages?) than in disparity of measurements. Never mind that for your list, though, as the Blades aren’t made in China.
Disparity of quality craftsmanship between high end speakers made in China vs. elsewhere is increasingly a thing of the past.

Keep in mind, you can always circle back to an earlier suggestion: discrete speaker sets for discrete duties (music / movies).

There is a lot of info on ASR, some of it from professional sound mixers / masterers, about how consumer home theater audio (discs, streaming files) is “downsized” [my term, perhaps not what they’d use] from theatric tracks, and apparently much of HT audio doesn’t aim for dramatic private setups (just like 2-Ch music doesn’t often target top-tier audiophile kit).

My point being, if you find whatever presentation you value most in a pair of stereo speakers for music, consider going with that and finalizing home theater L/R’s later IF the original speaker pair doesn’t behave as you wish for movies. A pair (or even quintet! ) of those DIY Murphy corner line arrays look like something a reasonable contractor could be hired to do if you want BIG sound from some movies, but not from unplugged/acoustic concert music, and don’t want to break the bank.

Don’t underestimate the potential gains from avoiding Jacks-of-all-trades.
I’ll push my current setup as an example: What I want of my 2-Ch music speakers is different than what I want from movie speakers. I use one setup for stereo music, and another for movies/tv. My tv is on the room’s long wall, but the music experience is needed from a perpendicular short wall due to room layout and use. That discrepancy could not be avoided.

So for tunes, 105” arrays make the room sound like a small music hall, I mean they really do, and a pair of 3” satellites (yes, 3” woofers, no typo) do L/R/phantom C for movies just fine, action-packed flicks included. How? My two 10” 300-600W powered subs move from 2’ behind the arrays on the short wall (music: 0° phase, 16” above floor) to each end of the couch on the long wall (movies:180° phase, on-floor), keeping with my goal of [relatively] unobtrusive, modular stereo kit and providing very different, but very effective service in both music and movies. Shifting between the two systems takes about 2.5-3 minutes to achieve if I’m dragging my feet.
If I hadn’t moved into [relatively] small living spaces over the past ~decade, my background probably would’ve prevented me from thinking about modular/adaptive techniques. With your fairly non-restrictive space, I see even less need for multitasking in your choice(s) of speakers, and that’s good!

In my case, the systems’ magic feather is also the Achilles’ heel: an untreated, fully concrete room (floor-walls-ceiling) does things to home audio that no drywall dwelling I’ve been in does, both good and bad, for both music and movies.

In any your case, there’s no need for unobtrusive / modular kit, nor for different systems to face different MLP’s, for limiting the # of subs, and obviously no requirement for an untreated room. Still, I see nothing begging only one set of main speakers (music vs. movies) in your case, either. That’s what got me interested enough to finally post on ASR - how different your scenario is from mine, including a willingness to go all-in, investment-wise, from the get-go. Hopefully that hasn’t resulted in me over-sharing. (insert sweating-laughing emoji here…)

If I were between your ears, I’d listen to figure out which 2-Ch speakers do my favorite parlor tricks best (and move them all around at the dealers’ - forward, outward, haul them halfway into the room, angle them in/out, tell the dealer to get some old California-king-sized bed mattresses pinned against the walls in different configs [joking!]). Then, if you get those speakers home and they don’t sound perfect for movies, well, you’ve still got end game music speakers, plus the firsthand knowledge that end game doesn’t always translate to Jack-of-all-trades, right?

All that typed, I’m guessing speakers that play your music just right will also be fine for L/R movie duty in a well-treated room. “End game” movie speakers might even be harder to define, since we can all compare the end effects to multiple versions of real cinema kit experienced over the years. No one I know has found a big public cinema kitted out for stereo music listening sessions, so most of us enter that search with a rather ignorant mind’s eye ear, compared to movies. I hold that ignorance can be bliss!

Yours is more of a FUNundrum than a conundrum: $30k might not land you Wisdom or Scaena arrays, but it’ll buy a LOT of great speakers. Happy auditioning, @MKR !

 

[steve59]

Blades made in China? I like that Kef keeps their affordable line affordable and their sota kit Made in England.

 

[benanders]

Blades made in China? I like that Kef keeps their affordable line affordable and their sota kit Made in England.

Doh!!
@steve59 thanks for catching that.
My comment was supposed to be the Blades areN’T made in China (hence more costly; 1x winky smile).
My follow-up sentence was to make it clear I doN’T personally find anything inherently wrong with speakers made in China (hence less biased in that regard, maybe; 2x winky smiles).
Take me as a poster child folks: doN’T anyone else type so much drivel so quickly while on a work break ().

 

[MKR]

Howdy all

Will be taking an audition trip later next week (finally!) and was curious as to what everyone likes for audition reference recordings? Of course I have my own list, but would be great to see some new recommends from y’all that maybe I have overlooked. Looking for the usual genres … Female voice, male voice, chamber, orchestral/classical, soundtracks, rock, folk, electronic, acoustic rock, etc. And also tracks that are good for checking the usual sonic characteristics … sibilance, neutrality/accuracy, low freq, imaging, soundstage, instrument separation, walking bass line, pipe organ, mid range accuracy, “air” around instruments, dispersion, etc

Single recordings that capture as many of the typical critical characteristics as possible are best … best case one recording that captures everything would be outstanding, but I am not aware of such a recording.

Thanks again all for accompanying me on this journey

 

[DMill]

Will be taking an audition trip later next week (finally!) and was curious as to what everyone likes for audition reference recordings?

I highly recommend using music you enjoy and are familiar with rather than something someone else thinks is good. There is no point testing Fast Car if you dont like Traci Chapmen and mostly listen to Black Sabbath. From artists you like pick 3 tracks. One that is heavy in bass, one that has prominent vocals, and one all rounder. i find any more than that completely confuses the issue and you start to second guess what you’re hearing. Plus, you just don’t have the time. You want to be able to hear the same track (or even better part of track) on different speakers with as little time elapsed as possible.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I think you should use the music that YOU are most familiar with... music that showcases the aspects you describe is right on, but ideally you will use material that you have listened to for years on numerous systems.

 

[GXAlan]

Single recordings that capture as many of the typical critical characteristics as possible are best … best case one recording that captures everything would be outstanding, but I am not aware of such a recording.

House of Flying Daggers Soundtrack (Stereo)
The Echo Game

Crazy stress test of intermodulation effects for bass. I don’t know of any other test track that is as easily reproducible and ABX’able.

Since you are investing $30k into speakers…

Step 1: Buy the Blu-Ray and watch the scene in your home theater. In 5.1, you don’t have to worry as much about intermodulation since each speaker is reproducing a single drum. This tells you what the reference is supposed to be. You get great clarity EVEN WITH mid fi home theaters.

If you don’t want to buy the movie, just believe me that each individual drum hit should be clean and clear.

Step 2: Using the CD or lossless streaming sound track, listen to the same thing and high to moderately high volumes.

I *used* to think that the CD was a horrible master until I got the JBL 4319. In most systems, in stereo, it sounds like a jumbled mess compared to the surround version, especially the latter part of the track.

When I introduced the JBL 4319 into my system, it was incredible how close the stereo reproduction came to the surround reproduction. I have confirmed this with the 708P as well at lower volumes. This is the 4319 at 96 dB does really well with bass, particularly with low 3rd order harmonics.

Admittedly, you may not listen to this song all the time but if you are spending 30k, it seems like passing this at 96 dB makes sense.

And even though the JBL 4319 does great against the Genelec and Neumann, the Revel F328Be is better at this low level control of distortion. I haven’t listened to this track on the Revel.

What I like about this track is that a plain “mid tier” home theater with Studio 530/Revel M106 level speakers and a budget subwoofer is clean. It is easy to know what the truth should be.

It takes a silly high end system to reproduce the same clarity in stereo.

Edit: And remember that 96 dB for a bass heavy track is probably closer to 76 dB for the rest of the music. So even though long term 96 dB listening is bad for your hearing, long term 76 dB listening with 96 dB bass peaks is probably less risky (* not actual medical advice just opinion*).

 

[dtaylo1066]

Fun and long thread. I was thinking how about maybe getting a 10K speaker and putting 20K into Invidia stock?

 

[Descartes]

To me what makes the Blades ugly are their foots... that plastic thing looks more like in the R series range instead of the premium range.. why they don't make a nice metal foots? even metal spikes (likes the ones from the References) under that plastic thing would be nicer



Im pretty sure the Blades two or Blades would delivery very nice bass, just if you room is big enough buy the big blades, the in room response is -6dB at 20hz for the big bro... that is very enough for music

Are you sure the feet are plastic? At that price that’s obnoxious!

 

[Descartes]

Blades made in China? I like that Kef keeps their affordable line affordable and their sota kit Made in England.

If only they were made in China and sold at $5000 I would consider buying them.

They are made in and cost $26,000 for the Blade meta 2

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Are you sure the feet are plastic? At that price that’s obnoxious!

The feet are not plastic. Threaded metal adjustable spikes with very substantial metal locking nuts. The base, otoh, is made of a non-resonant synthetic material as is the rest of the outer enclosure. It may be "plastic" to some people.

 

[GXAlan]

The feet are not plastic. Threaded metal adjustable spikes with very substantial metal locking nuts. The base, otoh, is made of a non-resonant synthetic material as is the rest of the outer enclosure. It may be "plastic" to some people.

Composites are used to skin the F35 JSF with a lot of attention toward the mechanical properties needed for flight.

https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/skinning-the-f-35-fighter

Premium speakers that utilize resin composites can be exceptional. Wood speakers can still be beautiful and measure well.

 

[Holmz]

Composites are used to skin the F35 JSF with a lot of attention toward the mechanical properties needed for flight.

https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/skinning-the-f-35-fighter

…

I have heard the expression of “AIR” but I did not think tha the things actually flew.

 

[MKR]

Fun and long thread. I was thinking how about maybe getting a 10K speaker and putting 20K into Invidia stock?

Did that years ago, how do you think I am able to afford $30k speakers?