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16 Channel Home Theater Pre/pro Recommendation

Bartl007

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I have not implemented SFM yet (for the subs); really want to, but awaiting a SW update that is supposed to help with that (it requires external help now).

To me this is insulting to the consumer that shells out 5 figures for a processor. The bass is so important not only for the lower octaves to sound right, but also in our perception of higher frequencies with respect to spectral balance.

The fact that you can get another product from Harman (sdp-55) that includes a functional (sort of/buggy) multiseat bass management solution for free is crazy...

Fwiw I'll be ordering an htp-1 soon despite Amir's review. If only I had the coin for the trinnov
 
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Blackdevil77

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Correct AFAIK but best talk to them or your dealer. I am not sure what other differences there may be, if any. I actually have an SDP-75 (JBL Synthesis version of the Altitude 32) as I was able to get a really great deal and it includes the PEQ for my Revel speakers. My dealer carries JBL, Revel, and Trinnov so was able to help with the pros and cons among processors with my speaker line-up. I have not implemented SFM yet (for the subs); really want to, but awaiting a SW update that is supposed to help with that (it requires external help now). Dealer , JBL, and Trinnov support has been great. The flexibility and control is amazing and I have only scratched the surface yet. Trinnov has a bunch of online videos and tutorials that are very useful.

Toyed with the idea but never expected to fork out the $$$. Frustration with my current (Emotiva XMC-1) processor and their struggles rolling out their new model (XMC-2/RMC-1) gave me significant pause, and when a few refurbs popped up at significant savings I made the jump. Funny, both my dealer and I bought one, then let them sit for almost six months, then we both set ours up within a week or two of each other. There are some glitches, and I had to rig up a remote on/off solution (see the Trinnov thread on ASR), but it is head and shoulders above the other processors and AVRs I have had (Denon, Emotiva, Pioneer, Sony, Yamaha).

I had planned to add high speakers for Atmos a couple of months ago but got derailed by Life and Work. I have a plan, just waiting for things to settle down a bit and to get some free time and funds to implement it.

My dealer carries the same. My dealer also told me the Trinnov and the SDP-75 is the same processor, except the SDP-75 trades 3D remapping for the ability to upload specific Harman DSP for specific Harman products. In my particular case, I have Crown amps powering my M2's with all the presets uploaded into the amps, so there would really be a benefit of having the SDP over the Altitude.

I'm very interested in SFM, but I need to learn more about it. When implemented SFM, do they calibrate the entire system, or just the subs? Would I have to pay for SFM and then pay another calibrator to calibrate the rest of my system? And does it pay to have SFM done if my sub placement is limited? I have 2 of my subs (JBL 5628's) behind the screen along the front wall. The other 2 subs I want to eventually add would have to be behind the 2nd row, towards the center of the back wall. Not really any place else I can put them. Not sure if the placement is ideal or not, but that's all I can do.

I still have to add my atmos speakers and 2 more surround speakers. Once I have all the speakers and subs in place, then I want to add the trinnov (or SDP). I heard SFM is crazy expensive to get done also. That on top of the cost of the Trinnov could potentially be too much all at once.
 
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Blackdevil77

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To me this is insulting to the consumer that shells out 5 figures for a processor. The bass is so important not only for the lower octaves to sound right, but also in our perception of higher frequencies with respect to spectral balance.

The fact that you can get another product from Harman (sdp-55) that includes a functional (sort of/buggy) multiseat bass management solution for free is crazy...

Fwiw I'll be ordering an htp-1 soon despite Amir's review. If only I had the coin for the trinnov

Maybe Amir can revist the HTP-1 review? I hear a lot of people say this, maybe it deserves another shot.
 

DonH56

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Thanks for the report. Just out of curiosity (I am not in the target market for this), what specifically gives Trinnov the edge over the others? Is it features? Performance? Sound quality? Looking for specific things that impressed you.

Note I am no Trinnov guru and after a week or two of initial setup early this year have not had time to play with it more. Following my thoughts as a noob and off the top of my head so may be off on some points (been a while since I actually dug into it).

It implements more DSP modes and tends to get new SW standards a little more quickly for the newer Dolby etc. stuff. It has all the usual format decoders and such, with some of the newest stuff coming out a little ahead of most manufacturer's production cycles. And of course since it is all running on a regular processor (not a consumer DSP chip) they can implement things pretty quickly and push a SW update instead of waiting for the next product marketing cycle. Note the SDP-75 does not have the Trinov remapping feature that allows you to create "phantom" speakers between your physical speakers. That is nice when you have say Atmos and Auro discs but physically only e.g. an Atmos layout (nice of the two formats to define different physical speaker locations, eh?) It has all the usual processing features you'd expect.

Feature-wise room correction is a geek's delight with incredible control over the DSP for things like filters (FIR and IIR), individual control of speaker response including crossover, phase, frequency response curves, etc. You can adjust # filter taps and response, and set min/max cut/boost over frequency so you can say limit the amount of bass correction to avoid overloading your main or surround speakers. It can handle multi-way speakers with individual control (amplitude, frequency, delay/phase) of each amp/driver (no external crossover needed as long as you have enough channels), bass management includes the ability to route the bass to the nearest sub or all of them, etc. You can do things like use a height speaker with limited LF response, redirect its bass to the nearest base speaker, then route the signal at the base's LF crossover to the sub(s). The Optimizer has way more features, flexibility, and control than anything else I have used (that does not include things like Accourate and such, but beats the pants off Audyssey, Dirac Live, MCACC, and YPAO). It has a Wizard that walks you through a basic setup so you can get running without a PhD, but will keep the PhDs happy for a while if you want to dig deeper. Their special calibration mic allows you to locate speakers precisely, and the display provides 2-D and 3-D views of your layout with fine detail about the positions of each.

All analog IO is balanced, convenient for me since I switched to balanced amps and subs a few years ago. I doubt it bought me much in SNR or noise rejection at my place, but solved a ground loop issue. It has 16 XLR outputs plus D-subs (also differential) for all 32 channels (if you have them -- I went for the 16-channel version though ended up with 24, not complaining).

Sound-wise, I honestly could not say. Measured performance after running the Optimizer and tweaking a bit is comparable to a little better than I was able to achieve with Dirac Live. Frequency response did not look all that different but measured impulse response is better. After setting it up it sounded different than my previous XMC-1 with Dirac Live and it handled the subwoofer integration better. I still have some work to do with subwoofer placement and integration, however, as I moved things around a bit and need to optimize sub placement again. I'd like to say it sounds much better, of course, but since it was about a week to do the changeover I could not really say. Very subjectively the center seems more "present", and there is more bass than I remember, but that could be (probably is) my bias speaking. My speakers are pretty good by themselves and my room is somewhat challenging. It sounds great, but it sounded great to me using any one of several other processors at the time, so who knows? :) Frankly, especially at my age and lack of any serious listening the past few years (except on stage), I was influenced by Kal's (@Kal Rubinson) positive review in Stereophile as much as anything on the sound. I like Kal's reviews, appreciate his more realistic (to me) stance on things (the guy's smart as all get-out), and he's been very helpful over the years when I have asked him for advice (bearing in mind that if it's in Stereophile he'll simply point me there, and that's fine too).

HTH - Don
 

DonH56

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To me this is insulting to the consumer that shells out 5 figures for a processor. The bass is so important not only for the lower octaves to sound right, but also in our perception of higher frequencies with respect to spectral balance.

The fact that you can get another product from Harman (sdp-55) that includes a functional (sort of/buggy) multiseat bass management solution for free is crazy...

Fwiw I'll be ordering an htp-1 soon despite Amir's review. If only I had the coin for the trinnov

My dealer carries the same. My dealer also told me the Trinnov and the SDP-75 is the same processor, except the SDP-75 trades 3D remapping for the ability to upload specific Harman DSP for specific Harman products. In my particular case, I have Crown amps powering my M2's with all the presets uploaded into the amps, so there would really be a benefit of having the SDP over the Altitude.

I'm very interested in SFM, but I need to learn more about it. When implemented SFM, do they calibrate the entire system, or just the subs? Would I have to pay for SFM and then pay another calibrator to calibrate the rest of my system? And does it pay to have SFM done if my sub placement is limited? I have 2 of my subs (JBL 5628's) behind the screen along the front wall. The other 2 subs I want to eventually add would have to be behind the 2nd row, towards the center of the back wall. Not really any place else I can put them. Not sure if the placement is ideal or not, but that's all I can do.

I still have to add my atmos speakers and 2 more surround speakers. Once I have all the speakers and subs in place, then I want to add the trinnov (or SDP). I heard SFM is crazy expensive to get done also. That on top of the cost of the Trinnov could potentially be too much all at once.

Trinnov has excellent bass management. What it does not do (as) easily is handle all the subs en masse so you use one output to drive all of your subs, or automatically group them as "one" sub. It turns out you can do it, either using a miniDSP or natively if you have the channels, in several different ways, but you have to watch some videos and read some tutorials to figure it out (at least I would). When I said it does not have SFM, that does not mean it does not have bass management, or the ability to control your subwoofers and integrate them with your system. It's got it all, just not SFM as a native option.

Sound Field Management (SFM) is a Harman-specific (not Trinnov) program that takes a set of measurements of the subs and creates filter files for your miniDSP or SDP-75. It uses offline processing (Matlib IIRC) similar to Andy's (@andyc56 ) multi-sub optimizer (MSO) program (though I don't think MSO uses Matlib). You implement the filters in your SDP-75 or miniDSP (and maybe others, not sure) to process the subs as a single channel (more or less) rather than individual subs. It is another way of integrating the subs. Opinions vary as to whether it is better than other methods including just letting the Optimizer do its thing.

For me, I misunderstood some of the steps, and how it is handled by Harman. If you or your dealer take your own measurements and work through your dealer, I think you can implement SFM natively in the SDP-75. There are a few gurus, Harman or otherwise, that you can pay to come out and set up your system, including SFM, but it's a rather expensive option and of course the whole COVID-19 business shut that down (may be possible this fall, I have not kept in touch). The reviews I've read online and from a few personal contacts have been extremely positive about an on-site calibration. My techie brain says I "ought" to be able to do that myself, but then again I hire a plumber even when I know how to replace a faucet. Experience and expertise can be expensive and invaluable.

There have been discussions and requests to incorporate SFM in the SDP-75. I have no idea if/when that will happen. I was a little vexed it was not included, and needed a set of extra measurements (seems like the ability to do it is all there), but understand it is a Harman thing and not a Trinnov thing so is a big lift. It is on my radar but I have not done it yet (crazy year). Like many things, SFM can get over-hyped, and the SDP-75/Trinnov does everything on its own just fine. My plan was and is to get the SDP-75 (Trinnov) up and running, which with help from my dealer I have done, do some tweaking on my own (ditto but lots more I want to try), and decide later if I want to implement SFM. I do not consider it necessary by any means, but maybe it gets me from 9.5 to 9.75 (there ain't no 10). I don't really even consider it icing on the cake, maybe a few extra sprinkles.

You don't need to do it all at once, and maybe never. The Wizard makes it much easier to run the optimizer and walks you through the entire process. The Wizard was very new when I got mine and not mentioned in the manual; I found it whilst poking around all the menus. Running it vs. stepping through the procedure in the manual (straight-forward but tedious) makes it much easier for a novice to get the system up and running. It is not a one-step process like Audyssey and some of the other consumer schemes; more like Dirac Live with a step-by-step process it walks you through. IME/IMO that makes it reasonable for most anyone to get going out of the box and I am surprised they didn't do it sooner.

Sorry for the length, back to work - Don
 

Vasr

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Note I am no Trinnov guru and after a week or two of initial setup early this year have not had time to play with it more. Following my thoughts as a noob and off the top of my head so may be off on some points (been a while since I actually dug into it).

It implements more DSP modes and tends to get new SW standards a little more quickly for the newer Dolby etc. stuff. It has all the usual format decoders and such, with some of the newest stuff coming out a little ahead of most manufacturer's production cycles. And of course since it is all running on a regular processor (not a consumer DSP chip) they can implement things pretty quickly and push a SW update instead of waiting for the next product marketing cycle. Note the SDP-75 does not have the Trinov remapping feature that allows you to create "phantom" speakers between your physical speakers. That is nice when you have say Atmos and Auro discs but physically only e.g. an Atmos layout (nice of the two formats to define different physical speaker locations, eh?) It has all the usual processing features you'd expect.

Feature-wise room correction is a geek's delight with incredible control over the DSP for things like filters (FIR and IIR), individual control of speaker response including crossover, phase, frequency response curves, etc. You can adjust # filter taps and response, and set min/max cut/boost over frequency so you can say limit the amount of bass correction to avoid overloading your main or surround speakers. It can handle multi-way speakers with individual control (amplitude, frequency, delay/phase) of each amp/driver (no external crossover needed as long as you have enough channels), bass management includes the ability to route the bass to the nearest sub or all of them, etc. You can do things like use a height speaker with limited LF response, redirect its bass to the nearest base speaker, then route the signal at the base's LF crossover to the sub(s). The Optimizer has way more features, flexibility, and control than anything else I have used (that does not include things like Accourate and such, but beats the pants off Audyssey, Dirac Live, MCACC, and YPAO). It has a Wizard that walks you through a basic setup so you can get running without a PhD, but will keep the PhDs happy for a while if you want to dig deeper. Their special calibration mic allows you to locate speakers precisely, and the display provides 2-D and 3-D views of your layout with fine detail about the positions of each.

All analog IO is balanced, convenient for me since I switched to balanced amps and subs a few years ago. I doubt it bought me much in SNR or noise rejection at my place, but solved a ground loop issue. It has 16 XLR outputs plus D-subs (also differential) for all 32 channels (if you have them -- I went for the 16-channel version though ended up with 24, not complaining).

Sound-wise, I honestly could not say. Measured performance after running the Optimizer and tweaking a bit is comparable to a little better than I was able to achieve with Dirac Live. Frequency response did not look all that different but measured impulse response is better. After setting it up it sounded different than my previous XMC-1 with Dirac Live and it handled the subwoofer integration better. I still have some work to do with subwoofer placement and integration, however, as I moved things around a bit and need to optimize sub placement again. I'd like to say it sounds much better, of course, but since it was about a week to do the changeover I could not really say. Very subjectively the center seems more "present", and there is more bass than I remember, but that could be (probably is) my bias speaking. My speakers are pretty good by themselves and my room is somewhat challenging. It sounds great, but it sounded great to me using any one of several other processors at the time, so who knows? :) Frankly, especially at my age and lack of any serious listening the past few years (except on stage), I was influenced by Kal's (@Kal Rubinson) positive review in Stereophile as much as anything on the sound. I like Kal's reviews, appreciate his more realistic (to me) stance on things (the guy's smart as all get-out), and he's been very helpful over the years when I have asked him for advice (bearing in mind that if it's in Stereophile he'll simply point me there, and that's fine too).

HTH - Don

Thanks for the detailed reply. It puts it in the right perspective. Seems like it is really built for the "audio tech geeks" (well-to-do ones at least!) who like to have as much control as possible and the ability to tweak any of it than have it all be hidden behind some cookie-cutter menu system for the lowest common denominator to be able to use (or the wizard here). The price would seem worthwhile only if you fit that profile though. Obviously there is nothing else out there comparable for that flexibility. Also, it might be more future-proof than the yearly cycle pre/pros it would appear.

Would it be easily upgradeable hardware-wise to HDMI 2.1 as well?
 

Bartl007

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Trinnov has excellent bass management. What it does not do (as) easily is handle all the subs en masse so you use one output to drive all of your subs, or automatically group them as "one" sub. It turns out you can do it, either using a miniDSP or natively if you have the channels, in several different ways, but you have to watch some videos and read some tutorials to figure it out (at least I would). When I said it does not have SFM, that does not mean it does not have bass management, or the ability to control your subwoofers and integrate them with your system. It's got it all, just not SFM as a native option.

Sound Field Management (SFM) is a Harman-specific (not Trinnov) program that takes a set of measurements of the subs and creates filter files for your miniDSP or SDP-75. It uses offline processing (Matlib IIRC) similar to Andy's (@andyc56 ) multi-sub optimizer (MSO) program (though I don't think MSO uses Matlib). You implement the filters in your SDP-75 or miniDSP (and maybe others, not sure) to process the subs as a single channel (more or less) rather than individual subs. It is another way of integrating the subs. Opinions vary as to whether it is better than other methods including just letting the Optimizer do its thing.

For me, I misunderstood some of the steps, and how it is handled by Harman. If you or your dealer take your own measurements and work through your dealer, I think you can implement SFM natively in the SDP-75. There are a few gurus, Harman or otherwise, that you can pay to come out and set up your system, including SFM, but it's a rather expensive option and of course the whole COVID-19 business shut that down (may be possible this fall, I have not kept in touch). The reviews I've read online and from a few personal contacts have been extremely positive about an on-site calibration. My techie brain says I "ought" to be able to do that myself, but then again I hire a plumber even when I know how to replace a faucet. Experience and expertise can be expensive and invaluable.

There have been discussions and requests to incorporate SFM in the SDP-75. I have no idea if/when that will happen. I was a little vexed it was not included, and needed a set of extra measurements (seems like the ability to do it is all there), but understand it is a Harman thing and not a Trinnov thing so is a big lift. It is on my radar but I have not done it yet (crazy year). Like many things, SFM can get over-hyped, and the SDP-75/Trinnov does everything on its own just fine. My plan was and is to get the SDP-75 (Trinnov) up and running, which with help from my dealer I have done, do some tweaking on my own (ditto but lots more I want to try), and decide later if I want to implement SFM. I do not consider it necessary by any means, but maybe it gets me from 9.5 to 9.75 (there ain't no 10). I don't really even consider it icing on the cake, maybe a few extra sprinkles.

You don't need to do it all at once, and maybe never. The Wizard makes it much easier to run the optimizer and walks you through the entire process. The Wizard was very new when I got mine and not mentioned in the manual; I found it whilst poking around all the menus. Running it vs. stepping through the procedure in the manual (straight-forward but tedious) makes it much easier for a novice to get the system up and running. It is not a one-step process like Audyssey and some of the other consumer schemes; more like Dirac Live with a step-by-step process it walks you through. IME/IMO that makes it reasonable for most anyone to get going out of the box and I am surprised they didn't do it sooner.

Sorry for the length, back to work - Don
That would tick me off as well to have what amounts to a math problem (independent sub phase/distance, level settings) withheld as a proprietary "trade secret" when Dirac live bass control and MSO can do the same thing for other brands.


I understand the JBL FLO (licensed from KYD) as a patented process for planning sub location in the design stage of a project. Hope you have your pocket book ready for the $10,000/$20,000 pricing tier structure depending on how many potential sub positions you want simulated.


I guess JBL considers both of these (SFM/FLO) as add on services that they can charge extra for.


I suspect SFM to be included soon though as the competition has caught up to the science involved with implementing subs for even seat to seat consistency.
 

DonH56

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That would tick me off as well to have what amounts to a math problem (independent sub phase/distance, level settings) withheld as a proprietary "trade secret" when Dirac live bass control and MSO can do the same thing for other brands.

I understand the JBL FLO (licensed from KYD) as a patented process for planning sub location in the design stage of a project. Hope you have your pocket book ready for the $10,000/$20,000 pricing tier structure depending on how many potential sub positions you want simulated.

I guess JBL considers both of these (SFM/FLO) as add on services that they can charge extra for.

I suspect SFM to be included soon though as the competition has caught up to the science involved with implementing subs for even seat to seat consistency.

It does have independent control (for all speakers), and Trinnov's Optimizer handles all of that automatically as well as giving you control of the parameters. You just don't get SFM (JBL/Harman proprietary, yes). My understanding is that Trinnov feels their own system is enough and provides the flexibility to do whatever you want if you want to do more on your own. It's like saying it doesn't include MSO, either. Yes, I wish the SDP-75 included SFM, but after some discussions understand the issues even if I do not completely agree with them. Did not play into my purchase decision though I expected to implement it later. And will, sometime...

Thanks for the detailed reply. It puts it in the right perspective. Seems like it is really built for the "audio tech geeks" (well-to-do ones at least!) who like to have as much control as possible and the ability to tweak any of it than have it all be hidden behind some cookie-cutter menu system for the lowest common denominator to be able to use (or the wizard here). The price would seem worthwhile only if you fit that profile though. Obviously there is nothing else out there comparable for that flexibility. Also, it might be more future-proof than the yearly cycle pre/pros it would appear.

Would it be easily upgradeable hardware-wise to HDMI 2.1 as well?

My impression is they expect your dealer to set it up and do the basic calibration. The new Wizard makes it much more accessible to "average" users. Trinnov has targeted mainly profession studios and theaters; they seem to be shifting more to consumers, albeit high-end ones. The folk who can plop down $100k+ for a system and pay someone to set it up for them. I am not really their market; cheaper and more tech-savvy than most. At least my dealer and Harman has told me... ;) I found it interesting that they also work with universities who do acoustic processing with Trinnov units.

As to HDMI 2.1, I don't know their plans, but assume it would be similar to the HDMI 2 upgrade that required a new video board. Not hard, not a simple plug-and-go board. From what little I have read (I have not downloaded the HDMI spec since 1.2 or 1.4) 2.1 does not really offer anything I need or expect to need so I have not asked.

As a reminder, I set mine up, did a bunch of tweaking a week or two later, and so it has sat the past six months or so. I have been happy with it and have not done any of the more advanced things I had thought to try -- just got too busy, and after my last round everything is dialed in pretty durn well. I am not an expert by any means; there are plenty of others here and elsewhere with far more experience.
 

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Trinnov has excellent bass management. What it does not do (as) easily is handle all the subs en masse so you use one output to drive all of your subs, or automatically group them as "one" sub. It turns out you can do it, either using a miniDSP or natively if you have the channels, in several different ways, but you have to watch some videos and read some tutorials to figure it out (at least I would). When I said it does not have SFM, that does not mean it does not have bass management, or the ability to control your subwoofers and integrate them with your system. It's got it all, just not SFM as a native option.

Sound Field Management (SFM) is a Harman-specific (not Trinnov) program that takes a set of measurements of the subs and creates filter files for your miniDSP or SDP-75. It uses offline processing (Matlib IIRC) similar to Andy's (@andyc56 ) multi-sub optimizer (MSO) program (though I don't think MSO uses Matlib). You implement the filters in your SDP-75 or miniDSP (and maybe others, not sure) to process the subs as a single channel (more or less) rather than individual subs. It is another way of integrating the subs. Opinions vary as to whether it is better than other methods including just letting the Optimizer do its thing.

Don

You can use MSO for SFM with a Trinnov machine without a MiniDSP and to come with the JBL versions when they‘ll allow you to do PEQs manually. It did improve bass response big time for me: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/trinnov-altitude-jbl-sdp-75.13095/page-7

I was also told by Trinnov that they are working on an all new bass management tool, too.

I totally agree with what @DonH56 described - it is such a great and versatile, bug free product. I wish @amirm would measure one.
 
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DonH56

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MSO and SFM are two different programs, both schemes to handle multiple subwoofers. Edit: I think you meant MSO or SFM? The difference is that SFM is only available to JBL owners, or so I've been told? I am not sure if you have Harman speakers and a Trinnov (from Trinnov, not SDP-75) processor if they'll let you run SFM? In any event, to use SFM, you make measurements and send them to JBL/Harman to crunch. You can crunch MSO numbers yourself. Either program provides PEQ parameters and values you need to plug into the Trinnov (and SDP-75, if and when they enable PEQ, supposedly a future update).

Manual PEQs were supposed to be added in an August (I think?) update but I have not been following. Swamped with work (yesterday and today, great).

Trinnov said in a recent video that they are working on a new subwoofer scheme but no details and no timeframe.
 
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Beershaun

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Why not the Denon avr-x8500? Edit: I mis-understood the presentation. The Denons support 13.2 channels max. DTSX: Pro format supports 30.2 but that is not supported by the Denon decoders.
It can process up to ~30 channels according to their talk on audiohaulics and it performs better as a pre-pro than most other dedicated pre-pros. And you can use the onboard amps for the channels you are less concerned about the power needs.
 
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DonH56

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Why not the Denon avr-x8500? It can process up to ~30 channels according to their talk on audiohaulics and it performs better as a pre-pro than most other dedicated pre-pros. And you can use the onboard amps for the channels you are less concerned about the power needs.

The specs on the Denon site say 13.2 channel max in the preamp... The marketing brochures say the same. Not sure where 30 channels comes from?
 

Beershaun

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The specs on the Denon site say 13.2 channel max in the preamp... The marketing brochures say the same. Not sure where 30 channels comes from?
Edit: You are correct, I mis-understood the capabilities. The Denons only support 13.2 Max. The presentation talks about DTSX: pro as a format supporting 30.2. But the Denon's don't support that level of decoding.

Here is the link to the event so you can watch them explain the capabilities. If you are interested.

 
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Olli

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Correct - different products, but trying to achieve the same - by using REW to determine Gain, delay and PEQs per sub if I am not mistaken. Main difference to me - MSO is freeware, SFM is 4 digit $ :) And yes, Trinnov doesn‘t offer this service.

MSO and SFM are two different programs, both schemes to handle multiple subwoofers. Edit: I think you meant MSO or SFM? The difference is that SFM is only available to JBL owners, or so I've been told? I am not sure if you have Harman speakers and a Trinnov (from Trinnov, not SDP-75) processor if they'll let you run SFM? In any event, to use SFM, you make measurements and send them to JBL/Harman to crunch. You can crunch MSO numbers yourself. Either program provides PEQ parameters and values you need to plug into the Trinnov (and SDP-75, if and when they enable PEQ, supposedly a future update).

Manual PEQs were supposed to be added in an August (I think?) update but I have not been following. Swamped with work (yesterday and today, great).

Trinnov said in a recent video that they are working on a new subwoofer scheme but no details and no timeframe.
 

Olli

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Why not the Denon avr-x8500? It can process up to ~30 channels according to their talk on audiohaulics and it performs better as a pre-pro than most other dedicated pre-pros. And you can use the onboard amps for the channels you are less concerned about the power needs.

My reasons:
1. Balanced Outs
2. Digital Outs - I am using L + R in another stereo set up only, with a Benchmark DAC 3 B and an AHB2 Amp
3. Better DSP
4. 3D Mapping - I am using 2 presets/setups, one is supoptimal wrt speakers and placements
5. + 18 dBu as default DAC gain (all other external amps are Hypex based. either NC400 or NC252
 

bigguyca

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https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...ton-sp4-16-channel-surround-processor-review/

:)

I would add Lyngdorf MP60 and Monoprice HTP-1 to the list (frankly I think Amir's complaints re HTP-1 are specious).

AudioControl is essentially Arcam/Synthesis.


Specifically what are your issues with Amir's complaints. "I think" isn't very helpful.


o The HTP-1 has a "interesting" design in the area of gain management and balanced, differential outputs.

For a 4V differential (XLR) output, here is the likely signal flow:

DAC (0dBFS) and following DAC filter output: 2V SE

Gain of volume control: +6dB, output of volume control: 4V SE

Gain of output buffer (opamp) -6dB, output = 2V SE - This is the single-ended output and (+) output. This output buffer has a low input impendence that puts a challenging load (low impedance) on the volume control. See the measurements in ASR at 4V XLR output.

Gain of inversion stage of differential output (opamp): inverted, 0dB = -2V SE

Differential (XLR) output: 2V - (-2V) = 4V between (+) and (-).

This gain structure would seem to worsen SN ratio and distortion. An alternative gain structure would be: Volume control 0dB gain, 2V output: output buffer, high input impedance, easy load, 0dB gain, 2V SE output: inversion stage -2V SE output. 4V differential output. With this design, 4V from the volume control would yield 4V SE and 8V differential (XLR).
 
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