16 Channel Home Theater Pre/pro Recommendation

[DonH56]

Correct - different products, but trying to achieve the same - by using REW to determine Gain, delay and PEQs per sub if I am not mistaken. Main difference to me - MSO is freeware, SFM is 4 digit $ And yes, Trinnov doesn‘t offer this service.

Measurements for MSO or SFM are made by REW, yes. I am not sure if other measurement SW can be used for SFM but suspect so -- I doubt it started with REW since SFM has been around a while. I suspect any reasonable format can be used and preprocessed in Matlab or whatever. I still have my "pro" measurement SW but have not used it in several years now -- REW is ubiquitous and I have a calibrated mic (CSL UMIK-1), so setting up my Earthworks mic, preamp, audio interface, etc. is just not worth the effort.

Both programs require you to take measurements, crunch the data off-line, and then load filter coefficients into your processor.

Yes, MSO is free, thanks to Andy's dedication and tireless support!

SFM is free if you do the measurements and let your dealer handle getting data to and from Harman to provide the numbers for you to plug into your miniDSP. At least that's how it was presented to me, and only for SDP-75 customers IIRC (and maybe only with Harman speakers, not sure, been a while).

You can also do it without a miniDSP if you have enough channels in your SDP-75, which I do (planned it that way). Where I crossed wires was in thinking I could just run the program on my SDP-75 given I have enough channels for my subs. That is not true; you still have to take measurements and send them to Harman to crunch through the SFM program to generate the filter coefficients. I got mixed feedback on costs for doing it inside the SDP-75 since that is what I had planned to do.

When I first asked, I got a cost sheet for on-site calibration including SFM, which is not what I wanted. That was four figures. After a little digging, you can pay a calibrator's hourly rate (probably $150~$200 per hour) to have them enter the parameter values since the SDP-75 does not expose the PEQ to the end-user. That is where I got two different answers; apparently some will only do that on-site since it requires essentially an OS update, while other(s) can do it remotely with you there to reboot the processor (I think, not sure if other assistance is required -- it is essentially an OS update to access the PEQ engine).

I also asked about licensing the program since I have Matlab and am still dialing in speaker and subwoofer placement (so expected multiple iterations). At the time that answer was "no". I got buried by work and such about then, and later heard there was to be an update late this summer enabling PEQ on the SDP-75, which should allow users to enter the numbers. The process would be to take a series of measurements as shown in the Harman handout, send them off (via your dealer) for Harman to crunch, then enter the resultant delays and filter coefficients into your SDP-75. I have not been in contact with anyone about that since early this year (ca. February, I think).

This is all pretty much an aside to the overall question of getting a Trinnov (or SDP-75). SFM is not critical to me since I have things dialed in pretty well just using the Optimizer, and there are other ways to handle the subs already built into the SDP-75/Trinnov that do not require MSO or SFM. Or I could get a miniDSP and do it that way, just resistant to one more thing in the system and just not enough hours in the day...

 

[Beershaun]

My reasons:
1. Balanced Outs
2. Digital Outs - I am using L + R in another stereo set up only, with a Benchmark DAC 3 B and an AHB2 Amp
3. Better DSP
4. 3D Mapping - I am using 2 presets/setups, one is supoptimal wrt speakers and placements
5. + 18 dBu as default DAC gain (all other external amps are Hypex based. either NC400 or NC252

Gotcha. Yeah the Denon's aren't set up for that.

For #2. It may open up other options for you and give you more choices if you completely split off that system and use a separate streaming endpoint for that system. Assuming you aren't running a single CD transport that you want to run in a "party" mode playing the same music across multiple rooms at the same time.

BTW: I am super envious of your #2 setup.

 

[Olli]

Gotcha. Yeah the Denon's aren't set up for that.

For #2. It may open up other options for you and give you more choices if you completely split off that system and use a separate streaming endpoint for that system. Assuming you aren't running a single CD transport that you want to run in a "party" mode playing the same music across multiple rooms at the same time.

BTW: I am super envious of your #2 setup.

For #2: Thanks! This is exactly what I am doing. I am using an RME Adi2 Pro FS DAC in MCH mode, CH 1-4 are Subs, CH 5+6 are connected via SPDIF to the DAC3/AHB2 combo. The streaming endpoint is a Sonore MicroRendu that goes to the RME. I have configured a virtual 3 way speaker in a DSP software called Audiolense, 2 (back) subs <65 Hz, 2 (front) subs >65Hz>165 Hz, Mains >165 Hz. These generated filters are loaded into Roon's convolver. Subs are Rhytmik F8s in case you wonder about the high cut off frequency to the mains. And they serve as very nice speaker stands for my TAD CE-1 bookshelf speakers:

The DAC 3 B has 2 digital Ins, so I am using 1 input for connecting SPDIF CH 5+6 Out of the RME, the other one to the digital outs of the Trinnov. On top, I have a custom made trigger controlled XLR subwoofer switch which directs the 4 subs from the analogue outs of the RME to the analogue outs of the Trinnov once the AVR is on - the Altitude 16 has 4 trigger outs of which 3 are idividually programmable depending on which source you are using with the Trinnov:

A bit over the top, but like this I have the best of both worlds

 

[Beershaun]

Very cool! Does that mean your 4 subs are set up as 2 groups, a left and right channel as part of the 3 way virtual speakers?

 

[stunta]

For #2: Thanks! This is exactly what I am doing. I am using an RME Adi2 Pro FS DAC in MCH mode, CH 1-4 are Subs, CH 5+6 are connected via SPDIF to the DAC3/AHB2 combo. The streaming endpoint is a Sonore MicroRendu that goes to the RME. I have configured a virtual 3 way speaker in a DSP software called Audiolense, 2 (back) subs <65 Hz, 2 (front) subs >65Hz>165 Hz, Mains >165 Hz. These generated filters are loaded into Roon's convolver. Subs are Rhytmik F8s in case you wonder about the high cut off frequency to the mains. And they serve as very nice speaker stands for my TAD CE-1 bookshelf speakers:

View attachment 82939

The DAC 3 B has 2 digital Ins, so I am using 1 input for connecting SPDIF CH 5+6 Out of the RME, the other one to the digital outs of the Trinnov. On top, I have a custom made trigger controlled XLR subwoofer switch which directs the 4 subs from the analogue ous of the RME to the analogue outs of the Trinnov once the AVR is on - the Altitude 16 has 4 trigger outs of which 3 are idividually programmable depending on which source you are using with the Trinnov:

View attachment 82937

A bit over the top, but like this I have the best of both worlds

Thanks for sharing this. Can you also please share how you selected the crossover frequencies? Are the back subs also F8s?

 

[Olli]

Very cool! Does that mean your 4 subs are set up as 2 groups, a left and right channel as part of the 3 way virtual speakers?

Correct!

 

[Olli]

Thanks for sharing this. Can you also please share how you selected the crossover frequencies? Are the back subs also F8s?

Yes, back subs are F8s as well.

I did look for room modes based on a reco from @mitchco: https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc and tried to avoid them as XO frequencies, then tried to look for the smoothest FR in Audiolense - that was a bit of a trial and error process. But you can just change the XO points within the same measurement in Audiolense.

 

[jhaider]

Specifically what are your issues with Amir's complaints. "I think" isn't very helpful.

His complaints are, "an obscure setting fixes the linearity/muting issue. This setting should be the default, not the other way around. I am still bothered by lack luster output level and distortion for a $4,000 product."

Regarding the former, sure whatever I just can't bring myself to care. Regarding the latter, sure "desktop stereo DACs" have more output, and in truth if you want to hang Benchmark amps off of an HTP-1 you might actually care. However, most HTP-1 buyers will use amps with input sensitivity that lands well within HTP-1's output limits.

So "specious" is the word of the day.

 

[Vasr]

Regarding the latter, sure "desktop stereo DACs" have more output, and in truth if you want to hang Benchmark amps off of an HTP-1 you might actually care.

Benchmark amp isn't a problem either since it has gain settings and can accommodate lower output sources.

Even the latest NAD M28 input sensitivity is 1.3V for Max Power (seems to be for both balanced and unbalanced in the published specs but it could be 2.6V for balanced).

So, in practice, I see the HTP-1 as a great buy especially given the trouble-free experience people seem to be having with it compared to a lot of pre/pros and being the cheapest full feature pre/pro with Dirac.

 

[Spocko]

As Amir will be reviewing the Trinnov Altitude 16 shortly, I welcome you to post questions and measurements requests you'd like to see! I am collecting those questions HERE for @amirm to consider.

 

[ReciprocalSpace]

Waiting to see how the 17 channel IOTAVX 17 measures for $2000 when it is released later this year. Not sure if it includes any sort of room correction.
https://www.iotaenterprises.co.uk/products/iotavx-avx17

 

[Spocko]

Waiting to see how the 17 channel IOTAVX 17 measures for $2000 when it is released later this year. Not sure if it includes any sort of room correction.
https://www.iotaenterprises.co.uk/products/iotavx-avx17

Considering that Onkyo is introducing Dirac to its $900 AVR this summer, it appears to be going mainstream so IOTAVX should incorporate it if it wants to compete with the likes of Onkyo.

Edit: Wow, looking closer at this model I'm impressed, 2 things stand out:

• looks like the IOTAVX 17 does have room correction, it appears proprietary they call it EQFlex room correction: "The proven EQFlex calibration system adapts the sound of the loudspeakers perfectly to the surrounding space. Each of the 17 channels is optimally set and can be adjusted to personal taste using parametric EQs if required. Eleven EQs are available for the front speakers and centre, seven for each of the other speakers and five for each of the subwoofers."
• Independent Bass management at this price? "For those who prefer to be active themselves, there are parametric EQs for all 17 channels. For example, four subwoofers can be fine-tuned independently of one another and operated as a double bass array."

 

[Vasr]

Considering that Onkyo is introducing Dirac to its $900 AVR this summer, it appears to be going mainstream so IOTAVX should incorporate it if it wants to compete with the likes of Onkyo.

Edit: Wow, looking closer at this model I'm impressed, 2 things stand out:

• looks like the IOTAVX 17 does have room correction, it appears proprietary they call it EQFlex room correction: "The proven EQFlex calibration system adapts the sound of the loudspeakers perfectly to the surrounding space. Each of the 17 channels is optimally set and can be adjusted to personal taste using parametric EQs if required. Eleven EQs are available for the front speakers and centre, seven for each of the other speakers and five for each of the subwoofers."
• Independent Bass management at this price? "For those who prefer to be active themselves, there are parametric EQs for all 17 channels. For example, four subwoofers can be fine-tuned independently of one another and operated as a double bass array."

I think there is a lot of misconception of IOTAVX as a company to form expectations. It isn't an engineering firm. It is a brand marketing company that gets equipment made by OEM/ODMs. The features pretty much come from the capabilities of the chip itself used in these ODM designs. For example, the 7.1 pre/pro they had derived its EQ features (a pretty crude one) from the chip as did the Emotiva MC-700 or the earlier Nu Force AVP-18 that used same chip (and the same OEM).

The IOTAVX 17 channel EQ capabilities presumably comes from whatever the DSP chip their ODM/OEM is now using (TI or Cirrus Logic) as a built in capability. Outlaw had the same plans years ago but gave up on it as not financially viable. These capabilities are very rudimentary compared to EQ from ARC, Audyssey, Dirac, etc. Note that most of the manufacturers who had their own EQ have been unable to compete with their proprietary solutions. Their decoders are whatever comes with the chip not separate licenses from Dolby or DTS.

They don't have the volumes necessary to afford to license Dirac or any commercial eq or any specialized decoders or surround synthesizers at any reasonable price. They are barely hanging on to support their direct sales to customers.

Where they occupy a niche is in providing a lower priced unit by cutting out some of the features of the mass-market brands in connectivity and signal processing so no internal R&D is required (very expensive).

It si also not clear that Onkyo will offer the full Dirac Live in its lower priced units. Dirac has a bundled software model like the bloatware that comes with Windows PCs requiring an upgrade to full version.

 

[ReciprocalSpace]

Considering that Onkyo is introducing Dirac to its $900 AVR this summer, it appears to be going mainstream so IOTAVX should incorporate it if it wants to compete with the likes of Onkyo.

Edit: Wow, looking closer at this model I'm impressed, 2 things stand out:

• looks like the IOTAVX 17 does have room correction, it appears proprietary they call it EQFlex room correction: "The proven EQFlex calibration system adapts the sound of the loudspeakers perfectly to the surrounding space. Each of the 17 channels is optimally set and can be adjusted to personal taste using parametric EQs if required. Eleven EQs are available for the front speakers and centre, seven for each of the other speakers and five for each of the subwoofers."
• Independent Bass management at this price? "For those who prefer to be active themselves, there are parametric EQs for all 17 channels. For example, four subwoofers can be fine-tuned independently of one another and operated as a double bass array."

Now if they just make a 19 channel model with HDMI 2.1 around this price I would have no reason to wait on the upgrade...

 

[Spocko]

Now if they just make a 19 channel model with HDMI 2.1 around this price I would have no reason to wait on the upgrade...

19 channels for more subwoofers as in 9.4.6? My guess is 5 years we'll see such a unit.

 

[ReciprocalSpace]

19 channels for more subwoofers as in 9.4.6? My guess is 5 years we'll see such a unit.

Yes, sir. While I know content that takes advantage of HDMI 2.1 is not mainstream, I am annoyed by my 4k eShift projector being HDMI 1.4 and being unable to run Netflix Atmos content without a HDCP 2.2 stripper. Therefore would rather get all devices under the same HDMI 2.1/HDCP 2.3 umbrella. I realize I could be waiting a while on a project to rock HDMI 2.1, especially when JVC's 8k is eShift so not true 8k and makes use of HDMI 2.0.

I look forward to the day, perhaps 5 years out when I can enjoy affordable 9.4.6 (without a miniDSP) on an 8k pixel shift projector from a UHD Blu-ray player that sports Darby Pxlvision 4k.

 

[wizardofoz]

Sigh will we ever get to stable and affordable pre pro scenario for all these brands with almost there offerings. XMC-2 is great price point albeit for the lockups and audio drops. maybe Acurus Muse is still worth a look - I at least know someone with one.

 

[twokdesigns]

I am now also considering monoprice htp-1 along with monoprice 7 channel 200w amp
anthem avm70 or arcam av40 jbl sdp-55 and would use my rotel rkb 8100 v3 100wattx8 class d amp

dont have budget higher than 7k but thinking rotel 8 channel not the best case for hometheatre and could get away with arcam av40 and monoprice monolith 7 channel
waiting on anthem seems futile and not sure that it would produce better results being is without dirac and arc a bit more limited as well as amount of seperate subs in comparison to arcam. I think I wont use dante so jbl likely not a better option than arcamav40
but looks like alot of complaints on the monoprice htp-1 with booting issues gone unresolved. Any help will help!

 

[twokdesigns]

ok. Dumb nobody has any answers lol. New thought, marantz av8805a and monoprice monolith 7 amp good combo over waiting for the htp-1 or in same price range do any of you so called spec engineers have better options?

 

[DonH56]

ok. Dumb nobody has any answers lol. New thought, marantz av8805a and monoprice monolith 7 amp good combo over waiting for the htp-1 or in same price range do any of you so called spec engineers have better options?

I don't know what a "so called spec engineer" is, just seems insulting.

The specs of most any AVR/AVP will not match stand-alone units. I don't choose by specs beyond meeting certain base levels of power, noise, and distortion; most of my HT choice is based upon features and price. Given my more recent experience I also tend to check out user forums for reliability and bug lists. Those are more subjective criteria and will not lead to any one answer -- it depends upon what the user needs and wants.

As for your choices, I think looking at codecs (formats) supported, channel count, and room correction (Audyssey vs. Dirac Live) may be considerations. Marantz has a longer track record, albeit at a higher price, but I personally favor Dirac Live so it would be a close call. The final decision must be your own, whatever "so called spec engineers" have to say.