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10K€ System Challenge (specs inside)

Buchardt A700 Active Loudspeakers maybe?
 
105dB @ couch (peak) would more than make my day, which makes 116-117 dB @ 1m (peak)

For these kinds of SPL's you're likely looking at a large main-monitor type of system. Especially if you want that kind of SPL down in the lower twenties. My subs can deliver that, but they're both 200l with 2x12" drivers. At the SPL's you're looking for, many hifi tweeters will struggle.
 
Buchardt A700 Active Loudspeakers maybe?
Yes, already mentioned in this thread. They look great.
I'd like to see some reviews and measurements though.
In particular, I can't find any SPL continuous/peak measurements, so I can't say how they compare to the other speakers on that aspect.
Good news, the Buchardt APP seems to be available on both IOS and Android. IOS-only was a deal-breaker for me.
2-year warranty on electronics is a problem too, but they are said to provide a warranty extension, so that would be OK.
So yes, I could consider them eventually, if reviews are good and they provide enough SPL. :)

Yes!
No way small speakers like the Kii can push that hard without support.
I was answering a question about my ideal requirements. Like I said, meeting them would "more than make my day", but if the perfect speaker existed but couldn't deliver as many dB, I would still consider it.
 
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Yes, already mentioned in this thread. They look great.
I’ve skimmed through the thread but must have missed it.
As to those new tower speakers from Buchardt, well. As much as I’m wary of powered speakers due to limited options set by manufacturer (especially at this pice range), I would be personally interested in hearing those speakers. As well as their pre/streamer/room correction toy that is an option to go alone with it. It’s not for everyone but it sure looks very interesting. But I would wait for more customer feedback and some reviews when they actually start shipping.
 
wouldn't a pair of 8351B plus a pair of subs be over my budget ? :rolleyes: You live in France too, do you have any price info for all these beasts ?
Following the links on the page below, you should be able to retrieve french prices
https://fr.audiofanzine.com/enceinte-active/genelec/8351a/

I agree with the Active choice.
Seems obvious.
Genelec is actual pro stuff, not just a marketing label. I own a pair of very old 1032A and they're still doing really great sound.
Not on the same level than more modern options like the 8351 here (which is, by all means, a modern design), but great, still.
 
Hi Jose!

Trying not to sound parochial. So many choices. I must say that in my experience 105 dB is painfully loud!
I haven't heard any of the speakers in most of the choices. I would favor the D&D because of all the choices with a track record, it is the most truly and in-room full range speaker system. It's made to play full range and well. The most recent REW/Umik update presage an open, not walled-garden environment. REW is fee, Umik is cheap. There is a sub output. D&D knows a thing or two about subs. In fact there previous product line had a 18" sub ... with cardioid patterns ( A 18 inch with a 15 inch in the rear, back in 2015) so ... they know what they're doing . The 8 & 8C goes loud at 32 Hz... I have speakers that are purported to go loud at 40 Hz but can only do so at 90 dB at 1 meter ... The 8 is a serious loudspeaker worthy of consideration.. If I was thinking about that kind of budget, I may ... Those would have been my speakers of choice.
Read the review from @mitchco , one of the few no-nonsense Audio reviewers .. HERE
 
Thanks guys :)

@Rja4000 , I know Audiofanzine. Unfortunately they don't have prices yet for the latest Genelec versions, either 8351B (not A) or 8361A.
Thanks for comforting me on the Active choice. It wasn't obvious to me when I started this thread, but it really does make sense.

@FrantzM , I would only envision 105dB for short peaks! Normal listening level should be 95dB max (at the listening point of course). I haven taken that into account in my calculations.

I am pretty convinced about the D&D 8C, I just need to listen to them. Actually I've written them an email with a couple questions. I hope they reply soon!
They're a serious option, but so are the others : Buchardt A700, Genelec 83xx, GGNTKT M2, Kii Three, Neumann KH420, and I may be forgetting stuff... Those products really seem to be astonishing stuff and most of them are within my price range and WAF-compliant ! :eek:

I just need to listen to them (well, those that I can listen to, it's not easy stuff to find) and make sure that they will work just as well in my own environment distance-wise, since I don't intend to be at 1 or 2 m but at 3.5 to 4 m. Hence the SPL requirement. So far I know where I can listen to Kii and D&D. The others I don't know yet. And Buchardt provides a 45-day free trial, so that's interesting too.

My timing is OK, since it's not an immediate purchase (more like getting back in the game, listening to them, and making my choice within 6-9 months max). So I can wait until the GGNTKT M2 comes out and the A700 has some real world reviews.

On the wishlist side, I wish D&D would provide a Master Volume physical thingy, prettier stands, a BXT-like extension to the 8S, or maybe a new floorstander model. I also wish that Kii's BTX itself would be cheaper! :p I mean, it triples the price so it doesn't make much sense to me money-wise : I can pay 10K€, but definitely not 30...
 
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Sorry, but I have a bag of bad news for you.
It looks like you still don't get one simple thing: there's no such thing as "just good gear" without exact room and use case.
I'd concentrate on your current needs and budget, because building future perfect listening room is a good idea, but we are not prophets here, so it's wiser to live today.
Right now we can summarize your requirements as:
1) needed mid/far fields without extreme spl (but still at least 3,5 m from LP)
2) heavy room treatment barely will be done
3) listening point is ..errr...less than optimal and will not be moved
4) PC is a source
Still we don't know your requirements in engineering terms regarding in-room bass, acceptable distortion, and how flat do you want to have your resulting FR. I'll suppose these parameters as "budget restricted".
It such case personally I'd go for used Trinnov and something like Neumann KH420. Trinnov will correct your FR in LP and KH420 will be able to throw enough undistorted SPL at required distance.
I'd not consider seriously anything nearfield and any solution, which not declares that it can be used at 3m from LP - at least. Even with subs. If you need size and big scene, you'll need big midbass and midrange and it will lead us to big woofers.
Also, I'd not recommend you anything passive, unless you can get something big and refined which also leads us to something expensive and high power amp. And big floorstanders can't be lifted or tilted if you'd like to get better room interaction.
And just for reference, i'd recommend you to get somehow to decent studio and to listen here some of your favourite music. If you will find it not very pleasant, ask sound engineer to alter sound according to your taste, write down these settings and you'll be free from all endless questions "what would I like to get". It's much faster and cheaper than swap hardware all the time and still be not satisfied.
 
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@FeddyLost , I'm a bit conflicted about your message, so I have bad news too : this thread got to page 5 with a lot of great people being extremely helpful and resourceful. Thanks to them I have already gotten up-to-date recommendations (which was my main goal), very relevant tips, and I have learned some valuable things. :D

You are treating me like I am some Hi-Fi newbie, and I don't know why you'd think that. :rolleyes: In 1993 with a group of friends from engineering school we buit our first series of Integrated Amps. I got into Hi-Fi at that time. Went to a lot of auditoriums. Listened to lots of technologies and gear, including stuff that nobody can afford. Been to some studios too. Around 2005, a friend and me built for his place an audio-dedicated fanless PC, with heatpipes and the best Pro studio soundcard that money could buy at the time (Lynx Two-B). Then there was a tri-amp (Power Amps that were an evolution of the Integrated Amps that we built in 1993 - not done by me) and a pair of DIY speakers weighting > 100 kg each (see pics). Everything with active XO based on IZotope Ozone and DRC. We listened to that system a lot. There were other projects after 2005 that I don't want to mention extensively.

Mise_en_route 500.jpg
DSC_6406.jpg


I know how Pro gear is meant to sound like. Actually I'm used to it. But being older, increasingly lazy and having other priorities, I never took the time to change my current system (which is not so bad BTW - It cost me 3-4 K€ 25 years ago), until now. I don't want to go the "DIY from scratch" way anymore, because I've already been down that road (it was fun but hard), and I know that I won't be able to achieve the level of performance that I'd like, even with lots of effort (at least not alone, but now my friends and I are in distant cities). Not to mention that I don't want to dedicate so much time anymore. We all need to remain humble and know our own limits. ;)

I too have trouble believing that a pair of bookshelf speakers can meet my needs (because... physics). Still, I'm willing to give some of these new-gen monitors a try. Because they are full of promises and ease of use, which would really make my day, and because SPL is not as important for me as you may think, so I'm willing to compromise on that.

With that said, if for you a listening point at 3.5-4m is "less than optimal" then let's agree to disagree. Feel free to listen at 1m if you like. Or buy headphones. :p Also, if for you Hi-Fi requires heavy room treatment, then know that for me Hi-Fi is rather about finding the best solution to meet the unchangeable physical constraints that we all have at home. Want an example ? Take a look at this picture, you may recognize it : https://audiophilestyle.com/uploads/monthly_2018_09/image8.jpg.35473b4c818eda52e3f8eb12a8d9263b.jpg . The room is far from ideal, right ? And I don't see any heavy room treatment.

I still have lots of stuff to learn, especially on recent technologies, and I'm learning here thanks to lots of knowledgeable people. Let's remain positive and keep it that way. :)
 
Let's remain positive and keep it that way. :)
I'm absolutely positive. Just wanted to recommend you some kind of "flat" but still tunable plug-and-play solution.
Less than optimal is unchangeable listening point near to back wall, which will add low-end pressure and may cause LBIR cancellation.
In my experience, the best results started to come when I get measuring mic and started measuring results of all changes. It's just plain uncomparable with anything else (done by ear - i don't beleive to this way anymore) I've heard. Flat FR with low distortion at LP is the key for revealing but not annoying system.
As far as I heard, the one of decent working solutions instead heavy room treatment is the Trinnov, which also made in France. It's not cheap , but it's a standalone plug-and-play alternative to software plugins for correction in your PC, and can be found used.
About new-gen smaller monitors ... I've tried to use some small speakers (with sub) in bigger room, and result was mediocre even with relatively flat FR. Even if they can deliver required undistorted SPL at 3,5-4 m (which is 100% possible, if you listen at 85 db or less as me) they barely will make "big imaging" like 10" woofers working up to 500 hz, for example.
Also, a lot of nearfield refinement will be lost as "room sound" will interfere with direct sound of speaker. So, high-end nearfields, even very powerful and capable, barely will show their best in far field.
Anyway, IMO, when we assume such price levels, all must be heard personally in comparable conditions at least. 10k is a lot for me, and resale losses usually bigger than audition tryout expenses.
 
@all, I have good news : with a basic dBmeter app, I have made some rough measurements in my living room at the listening point, of what I consider to be a "loud" continuous sound (not extremely loud, but reasonably loud). Turns out it's about 89 dB, not 95. So I'm confident that a lot of the mentioned speakers will be adequate :

Continuous @5m : KH420 (89 dB) / Kii Three (91 dB) / D&D 8C (92 dB) / 8351B (92 dB) / 8361A (99 dB)
(source for KH420 : https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-420#technical-data )
 
@all, I have good news : with a basic dBmeter app, I have made some rough measurements in my living room at the listening point, of what I consider to be a "loud" continuous sound (not extremely loud, but reasonably loud). Turns out it's about 89 dB, not 95. So I'm confident that a lot of the mentioned speakers will be adequate :


(source for KH420 : https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-420#technical-data )
Be aware that Genelec's SPL limit is from 100 Hz to 3 kHz; basically useless. I would wait for a serious measurements of these to know their bass capabilities (sadly, the 8341A was measured before Amir upgraded the distorsion measurements).
 
Be aware that Genelec's SPL limit is from 100 Hz to 3 kHz; basically useless. I would wait for a serious measurements of these to know their bass capabilities (sadly, the 8341A was measured before Amir upgraded the distorsion measurements).
Hi
No critic here, but I'm a bit surprised by your reaction.
For once, you have a vendor specifying something more relevant than bare sensitivity @1kHz, and you say it "means nothing" ?
They probably limited their average to 100Hz because the bass rolloff starts gently below that.
It's still way more usefull than usual figures, though.
What's your concern ?

Which doesn't mean that a proper measurement at high level by Amir is not useful. It is, of course.
 
May I point out the Direct Sound Dominance graph in Genelec's Correct Monitors page? Critical distance makes it beyond 3 m only on a handful of models - and that's assuming the indicated RT60 values of around 0.3 s. I bet the room as-is isn't anywhere near that (try more like 1 s). It would take ridiculously large speakers with nearly laser-focused directivity to tame these conditions. Something quite PA-ish looking with a 12-15" woofer and compression driver in a horn at the very least (like the S360A, in budget), possibly all horn even. Unfortunately, as a rule of thumb, the more directional a speaker is the harder it is to get the off-axis response right. So this approach might get you a less mushy but more colored sound.

A bit of room treatment avoids putting undue hardships on speaker construction and ultimately your wallet. You can brute force your way through a lot of things but the solutions will definitely look the part.
 
Hi
No critic here, but I'm a bit surprised by your reaction.
For once, you have a vendor specifying something more relevant than bare sensitivity @1kHz, and you say it "means nothing" ?
They probably limited their average to 100Hz because the bass rolloff starts gently below that.
It's still way more usefull than usual figures, though.
What's your concern ?

Which doesn't mean that a proper measurement at high level by Amir is not useful. It is, of course.
I'm a Genelec fan, so you're preaching to the choir, here. I said "it means nothing" because it doesn't when talking about use without subs, which is OP's case; probably because Genelec would recommend a sub for midfield and even nearfield.
The manual gives a bit more detail, though. For the 8351B, "Harmonic distortion at 90 dB SPL at 1 m on axis: 50…100 Hz < 2%, > 100 Hz < 0.5%" isn't very loud; the 8350A does exactly the same and the 1238A does 50…200 Hz < 1% and > 200 Hz < 0.5% at 95 dB SPL, for example.

Basically, you can't completely infer the loudpspeaker's limit that way, so why bother? Neumann's SPL/THD/frequency data is way more useful, honestly:
KH420_MAX_510.gif
 
May I point out the Direct Sound Dominance graph in Genelec's Correct Monitors page? Critical distance makes it beyond 3 m only on a handful of models - and that's assuming the indicated RT60 values of around 0.3 s. I bet the room as-is isn't anywhere near that (try more like 1 s). It would take ridiculously large speakers with nearly laser-focused directivity to tame these conditions. Something quite PA-ish looking with a 12-15" woofer and compression driver in a horn at the very least (like the S360A, in budget), possibly all horn even. Unfortunately, as a rule of thumb, the more directional a speaker is the harder it is to get the off-axis response right. So this approach might get you a less mushy but more colored sound.

A bit of room treatment avoids putting undue hardships on speaker construction and ultimately your wallet. You can brute force your way through a lot of things but the solutions will definitely look the part.
This is only if you want direct sound dominance, which isn't that needed in domestic use, especially with such good off-axis behaviour. Otherwise, this "problem" applies to almost all loudpspeakers.
 
@all, I have good news : with a basic dBmeter app, I have made some rough measurements in my living room at the listening point, of what I consider to be a "loud" continuous sound (not extremely loud, but reasonably loud). Turns out it's about 89 dB, not 95. So I'm confident that a lot of the mentioned speakers will be adequate :


(source for KH420 : https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-420#technical-data )
Yeah, if you need to listen continuously at 95db to get the rockin' hard sound you're looking for, you'll be a prime candidate for hearing aid tech in a coupla years.
 
The GGNTKT seems like it's gone up in price before it's even been released. The UK vendor talks about it costing 5,000 GBP which is around $8k USD. I think that's a little steep for a not quite full range 2.5 way monitor from a brand new manufacturer. Would be a lot more attractive if it was selling at around $6k for US buyers which is what I originally was under the impression they would cost.

Prices are still the same, see: https://ggntkt.de/en/preise-und-verfuegbarkeit/ (EUR, including VAT)
They may vary depending on local VAT, currency and shipping/import fees.
 
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