What do you think is the standard price for HI-FI, HI-END?

[Harmonia]

Hello everyone!

I posted an ASR article for the first time yesterday.
I'm so happy that members are actively participating and discussing my questions together. I love conversations.

I have an additional question.
What price range do you consider as the threshold between HI-FI and HI-END in a 2CH speaker system?

In my opinion, for DACs, I consider over $30,000+ to be HI-END. For speakers, I think $50,000+ is HI-END. Because many brands have increased their prices by over 100% since the COVID-19 period, I think we should also raise the price standard for HI-END significantly.

For a 2CH speaker system to be considered HI-END, I think the price should be:
Speakers $50,000
DAC $30,000
Amplifier $50,000
Cables $20,000
= $150,000
Based on MSRP, shouldn't it exceed this amount to be called a HI-END system now?

I know it's an incredibly large amount. But surprisingly, many people use systems that cost more than this. In fact, people who own audio systems at this price point tend not to skimp on investing in what they buy. They're often people of high social status.

As society is becoming increasingly polarized, this is how I think about it, but I'm curious about what others think.


P.S.
Is it appropriate to post this kind of content here?
My nickname doesn't have a strange meaning! It's Uranus, a god from the generation before Zeus and Cronos! I chose it with good intentions, but everyone seems to think negatively about it! .... Should I change my nickname?

 

[terryforsythe]

The system you posted is analogous to a Rolex watch. A Rolex won't keep better time than something a fraction of its cost, but it will make you feel like you are impressing someone.

 

[terryforsythe]

Based on MSRP, shouldn't it exceed this amount to be called a HI-END system now?

No. Just, no.

In audio price oftentimes fails to correlate with performance. Also, you will notice that companies that make very expensive audio equipment oftentimes fail to disclose a complete set of test data, most likely because the performance is not commensurate with the price.

 

[Power Pop 23]

Hello everyone!

I posted an ASR article for the first time yesterday.
I'm so happy that members are actively participating and discussing my questions together. I love conversations.

I have an additional question.
What price range do you consider as the threshold between HI-FI and HI-END in a 2CH speaker system?

Consider basing your definitions of Hi-Fi and HI-END on measured performance instead of price.

 

[kemmler3D]

everyone seems to think negatively about it! .... Should I change my nickname?

In English when pronounced, it sounds the same as "your *ahem* booty hole" so it's often used as a joke.

What price range do you consider as the threshold between HI-FI and HI-END in a 2CH speaker system?

To my knowledge the most you can spend with some expectation of getting better sound for your money is around $65K for active speakers (Genelec 8381) or maybe around $30K for KEF Blade speakers and another $2-3K at most for amps, DAC, streamer, etc.

So let's say the line between Hi-Fi and "Hi-end" (meaning, spending more improves the sound by 0%) is between $35-65K.

Diminishing returns (if you don't need high SPL for a big room) start to happen around $1K for speakers and it gets very bad beyond $5K+.

The KEF Blade 2 Meta is said to be among the best speakers on the planet and costs around $28K. But the LS60 is said to be close, and is only about $4-5K if you can find a deal. So the quality / price relationship breaks down very fast after a certain point.

 

[Blumlein 88]

High End was a term popularized by Harry Pearson at The Absolute Sound magazine. Though this magazine became the poster child for very expensive, very esoteric gear that was not his original intention. It was for High End gear to mean something approaching the best possible sound reproduction and cost didn't matter. As in cost high or low wasn't the point. Performance was the point.

It is a different conversation as to how High End became something determining sound quality by uncontrolled subjective listening.

In the context of his original intent of best possible reproduction there are many areas where the best possible is rather inexpensive. Along with many super expensive pieces being not the best performance. Beyond aesthetics and luxury you can get state of the art performance for very little money now with almost everything other than speakers. The right speakers can also put you there for less than some of your amounts of money in your list.

For instance there are DACs below $1000 that cannot be audibly improved upon at any price. There are amplifiers for which that is true for less than $10,000. Probably less than $4000. There are speakers for very large spaces that still need to be large and expensive. For smaller spaces like most people use you don't even need to spend all that much to approach the best possible in speakers.

So if anything, especially inflation adjusted, audio quality has never been as inexpensive as it is now.

 

[Blumlein 88]

DAC $1000
AMP $10,000
Speakers $20,000
Cables $100.

You probably could cut all of these in half so being generous:
$31,100.

There are some speakers that are active worth considering and those and a superior woofer would run about $16,000 without the need for an amp.

 

[bachatero]

Hi-END is just Hi-FI but with worse audio quality and necessarily high price by definition, so which do you really want?

 

[Mr. Widget]

As society is becoming increasingly polarized, this is how I think about it, but I'm curious about what others think.

I think ASR is well read by a large segment of the audio world, but the heavy posters here generally do not represent the average "audiophile" in fact many here use the term "audiophile" as a term of derision, but many here do consider themselves audiophiles even though we may not believe in magic wires, and find no reason the spend tens of thousands of dollars on audio bling.

I think you can assemble an outstanding hi-fi system for a few thousand dollars and if you appreciate beautifully crafted electronics or turntables you can easily spend more.

Personally, I do not consider the term, High End to mean much.

 

[Harmonia]

No. Just, no.

In audio price oftentimes fails to correlate with performance. Also, you will notice that companies that make very expensive audio equipment oftentimes fail to disclose a complete set of test data, most likely because the performance is not commensurate with the price.

I have read your opinion carefully.

I am well aware of that too. Just because something is expensive like a Ferrari or a Lamborghini doesn't mean it always performs better. This is especially true in the audio field.

I am particularly aware that the performance of recent products is becoming more standardized, and we have entered a world where Chinese audio DACs are showing tremendous specifications.

Therefore, on the one hand, I was curious about how you all think about what is considered "HI-END".

I also understand well why they don't provide measurement values. They argue that "measurements cannot express the value and sound of our products."

One might say, "What nonsense!" However, because there are people who accept this and make purchases, and because I was curious about the thoughts of you all from various countries, I decided to write this post.

 

[terryforsythe]

DAC $1000
AMP $10,000
Speakers $20,000
Cables $100.

You probably could cut all of these in half so being generous:
$31,100.

There are some speakers that are active worth considering and those and a superior woofer would run about $16,000 without the need for an amp.

I tend to agree. Though, personally, I would take $8,000 from the amplifier budget and put it toward the speakers: KEF Blades and a pair of Hypex Nilai monoblocks. I might also add subwoofers to help with room correction.

One thing not mentioned yet is room treatment. That costs money, depending on how far you want to go.

 

[Harmonia]

Consider basing your definitions of Hi-Fi and HI-END on measured performance instead of price.

I agree with you.

Measurements don't mean everything, but it can be a clear reference.

I also refer to measurements a lot.

 

[BeeKay]

DAC $1000
AMP $10,000
Speakers $20,000
Cables $100.

+ being able to contol your Audiophilia nervosa: Priceless

 

[terryforsythe]

Therefore, on the one hand, I was curious about how you all think about what is considered "HI-END".

There are many options for $5k and under that, in my opinion, are high end. As an example, in a small to medium size room a pair of $5,000 KEF LS60 Wireless speakers fits the bill. If you are in a big room, add a couple of subwoofers for another $3,000 or so. But, there are many other system combinations that will get you high end sound for not a lot of money.

I also understand well why they don't provide measurement values. They argue that "measurements cannot express the value and sound of our products."

They argue that because they don't want to admit that there are much less expensive products that outperform their products. If they admit that, they go out of business.

One might say, "What nonsense!" However, because there are people who accept this and make purchases

Most people are uninformed, and buy what they are told is good. Unless someone has an interest in audio and spent a lot of time educating themself on the subject, it is very difficult to make good buying decisions when it comes to audio. Understanding what objective measurement data represents and reviewing that data for items being considered is the best way to approach buying decisions, in my opinion.

 

[Martin]

I think you are way off the mark with regards to what is the standard price for hi-fi/hi-end. There is zero evidence of any correlation between price and performance other than a seemingly inverse relationship: the more a particular component costs the more likely it is to measure like shit. (Excuse my language; while vulgar I believe it is, in this case, justified.)

You may want to look at the results of this poll: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ney-do-you-have-invested-in-this-hobby.11315/

Martin

 

[Philbo King]

Hello everyone!

I posted an ASR article for the first time yesterday.
I'm so happy that members are actively participating and discussing my questions together. I love conversations.

I have an additional question.
What price range do you consider as the threshold between HI-FI and HI-END in a 2CH speaker system?

In my opinion, for DACs, I consider over $30,000+ to be HI-END. For speakers, I think $50,000+ is HI-END. Because many brands have increased their prices by over 100% since the COVID-19 period, I think we should also raise the price standard for HI-END significantly.

For a 2CH speaker system to be considered HI-END, I think the price should be:
Speakers $50,000
DAC $30,000
Amplifier $50,000
Cables $20,000
= $150,000
Based on MSRP, shouldn't it exceed this amount to be called a HI-END system now?

I know it's an incredibly large amount. But surprisingly, many people use systems that cost more than this. In fact, people who own audio systems at this price point tend not to skimp on investing in what they buy. They're often people of high social status.

As society is becoming increasingly polarized, this is how I think about it, but I'm curious about what others think.


P.S.
Is it appropriate to post this kind of content here?
My nickname doesn't have a strange meaning! It's Uranus, a god from the generation before Zeus and Cronos! I chose it with good intentions, but everyone seems to think negatively about it! .... Should I change my nickname?

There is little or no relationship between price and quality. But tech-bros with too much money are going to buy toys/arm-candy 2nd wives/sports cars for their ***** competitions I guess...

 

[Harmonia]

In English when pronounced, it sounds the same as "your *ahem* booty hole" so it's often used as a joke.


To my knowledge the most you can spend with some expectation of getting better sound for your money is around $65K for active speakers (Genelec 8381) or maybe around $30K for KEF Blade speakers and another $2-3K at most for amps, DAC, streamer, etc.

So let's say the line between Hi-Fi and "Hi-end" (meaning, spending more improves the sound by 0%) is between $35-65K.

Diminishing returns (if you don't need high SPL for a big room) start to happen around $1K for speakers and it gets very bad beyond $5K+.

The KEF Blade 2 Meta is said to be among the best speakers on the planet and costs around $28K. But the LS60 is said to be close, and is only about $4-5K if you can find a deal. So the quality / price relationship breaks down very fast after a certain point.

I fully acknowledge your opinion.

I have listened to the Meridian DSP8000SE active speakers for a long time. I have also extensively listened to all the models below it (DSP5200, 5200SE, 7200, 7200SE, etc.).

The hardware specifications of these speakers are really low. This is because they are focusing more on the car audio industry, and the founder, Bob Stuart, created MQA and paid more attention to that side. He wanted to standardize a new format once again, In the past(MLP was created and this was used in DVD-AUDIO and DOLBY.), but even TIDAL gave up on MQA. It failed.

In the meantime, the hi-fi products that increased their brand value have gone decades without significant upgrades, and during that time, many excellent speakers like Genelec have been born.

However, to say that the Meridian speakers sound bad? That's not quite the case. They claim to produce a "live-like" sound, and they do deliver quite a listenable, impressive sound.

Of course, I reiterate that this doesn't mean one needs to buy such expensive speakers to listen to, but I acknowledge it.

In other words, we can say that the important point is that the relationship between price and performance, or hardware specs and good sound, is perceived differently by everyone.

I have listened to KEF's LS50 a bit, but for their larger speakers, I've only heard them at shows. However, I also know that this brand offers excellent performance for its price. It's also a brand with great design.

Among passive speaker brands, I consider Wilson Audio to be the most capable of perfectly tuning the sound structurally. Especially since each unit is modularized, they can achieve near-perfect time domain alignment. The ultra-high-end models from Wilson Audio are speakers whose sound can completely change depending on the skill of the person setting them up.

Using the Master Chronosonic Micrometer System applied to the currently available WAMM or XVX models, it can truly perfectly adjust the tweeter to fine-tune the ultra-high frequencies at the sweet spot.

The ultra-high frequencies can change dramatically with just a 1-2 inch difference, which is impossible for an average person to set up normal speakers. How could one move the speaker just that precisely? It's not easy. But Wilson Audio has made it possible.

And I've been fortunate enough to experience those changes firsthand. They are truly amazing speakers.

I believe that speakers from very famous hi-fi brands such as Wilson Audio, KEF, B&W, FOCAL, YG Acoustics, and others have their own identity, history, and technology. That's why I think people are purchasing these speakers at high prices.

 

[mcdn]

Ok. Enough. Blocked,

 

[Chrispy]

In English when pronounced, it sounds the same as "your *ahem* booty hole" so it's often used as a joke.

When mis-pronounced....

 

[terryforsythe]

Among passive speaker brands, I consider Wilson Audio to be the most capable of perfectly tuning the sound structurally. Especially since each unit is modularized, they can achieve near-perfect time domain alignment.

A few points:

Active speakers achieve the best time domain alignment. Just compare the impulse response of the KEF LS60 (with phase phase correction enabled) to the Wilson Audio speakers (if you can get the data), and you will see. But, well engineered passive speakers can be good enough.

With the units being modularized, I would be concerned about diffraction. Every time there is an edge or corner, sound waves will diffract. It would be interesting to see full test data on their modular units.

Below is a link to a review and test data for the TuneTot. They are not good in my opinion, especially for the price. Here is the first sentence of Amir's conclusion: "There is no question that there are some clear objective/engineering errors in the design of Wilson TuneTot."

Wilson Audio TuneTot Review (high-end bookshelf speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Wilson Audio TuneTot stand-mount/bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs around US $10,000 (varies due to color). I am not a fan of the way the front looks without the grill. The sides though sport probably the best...

www.audiosciencereview.com