10K€ System Challenge (specs inside)

[jae]

Could even use something like a Raspberry Pi based streamer with an addon like a PI2AES or similar, for feeding digital in directly. This way you can use something like moode or volumio etc or whatever renderer on the Pi to play tracks from your computer, phone, etc. Or playing tracks from your computer using your phone as a remote.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Lots of interesting contributions in this thread. Thank you so much guys. Let's try to sum this up :

Genelec is a serious contender and they obviously know what they're doing. 8351B are an option, but maybe the 8361A could fit within my budget, and since I don't want to complicate things with additional subwoofers, maybe I should go the extra mile and get the 8361A directly. Not to mention that I plan to listen to them at 4-5 m distance, so not exactly near field... I've seen the 8361A at less than 10K$ (pair), but I haven't found any price in €... Why is it so difficult to find european prices for digital active monitors ?

The X-SPDIF 2 is 400 €. But like phoenixdogfan said, a basic format converter should suffice on the digital side, provided your PC has a SPDIF output (which a lot of recent motherboards have). Don't you think @EchoChamber ? Why get an X-SPDIF 2 if a basic format converter can do the job ?

On the PC side, my player of choice is and will be foobar2000, as I have invested countless hours in customizing it to my very needs. So I don't know about other players like Roon and I'm not really interested (they can't provide higher quality than foobar2000 anyway). Which leads me to this :

If D&D 8C Studio has all the features of the regular 8C except the lack of Roon support, I think that's highly overpriced! 2000 € just for Roon support ? I must be missing something. And why only Roon ? Why not just any other player ? Why pay 2000 € just for that ? In that case I could just get a pair of 8C Studio for 8000 € (+ taxes apparently), a SPDIF to AES/EBU converter (why use a DAC in this case ?), and I would be all set. Have I forgotten something ?

As for Volume Control, at first I was thinking of doing it directly with foobar2000, since it handles volume over 32 bit, which leaves 16 bit of room in case of 16-bit audio files (99% of my files). So roughly speaking, you could lower the volume to about -96dB without affecting sound quality. However, maybe it's not so simple as S/N ratio could be affected by digital volume control, unless digital volume control has direct DAC access. Which means that I should mainly control volume with D&D or Genelec's Ethernet based app which (I suppose) has direct access to their own internal DACs, and only use foobar2000's volume control over a small range (10dB or so). What do you think ? I'm a bit lost here.

So to sum it up, my system could look like this in case of digital active monitors :

• PC --> SPDIF --> Passive Converter --> Digital AES/EBU --> Monitors (D&D, Genelec, GGNTKT...)
• PC --> Ethernet --> Home Ethernet Switch --> Ethernet --> Monitors (D&D, Genelec, GGNTKT...)
• Audio player : foobar2000
• Volume Control : mainly by manufacturer's app, residually by audio player

I don't mind having a double connection to the Monitors (Digital AES/EBU + Ethernet).

 

[jae]

Dutch & Dutch is supposed to be releasing some sort of attachment/remote for the speakers that will allow volume control and maybe some other features (I assume with some kind of dial/knob). Not sure when that's supposed to come out.

An alternative could be PC/foobar -> foo_upnp/foo_out_upnp plugins -> raspberry pi w/ aes hat-> 8c. That way you just select the appropriate upnp device in foobar's output to stream it directly to the pi's renderer

It's possible the 8c 'remote' thing might have a USB port that you can just connect to a computer, which would make a much more elegant solution.

 

[shal]

Hi,
you are in Lyon: take your car and go visit PSI Audio, and listen https://www.psiaudio.swiss/a25-m-mastering-grade-3-way-accurate-loudspeaker/

Ok 9k speaker but add a 1k DAC and it's ok you have an excellent system for 10k

 

[Koeitje]

Kii Three's or Dutch&Dutch 8C's.

 

[EchoChamber]

Hi,
you are in Lyon: take your car and go visit PSI Audio, and listen https://www.psiaudio.swiss/a25-m-mastering-grade-3-way-accurate-loudspeaker/

Ok 9k speaker but add a 1k DAC and it's ok you have an excellent system for 10k

Those look sweet! I find it interesting that they emphasize the fact that their systems are pure analog. I wonder how much that has an impact on the sound compared to high res DSP crossovers. I’d be curious to test our subjective perception.

 

[EchoChamber]

Genelec is a serious contender and they obviously know what they're doing. 8351B are an option, but maybe the 8361A could fit within my budget, and since I don't want to complicate things with additional subwoofers, maybe I should go the extra mile and get the 8361A directly. Not to mention that I plan to listen to them at 4-5 m distance, so not exactly near field... I've seen the 8361A at less than 10K$ (pair), but I haven't found any price in €... Why is it so difficult to find european prices for digital active monitors ?

Yes, I think if you’re 4-5 meters away, you should consider the 8361A. That’s what Genelec tells me the further you are the larger the monitor you need for optimal sound. In my case my ears are about 3 meters from the front of the speakers.

These are also hard to find, especially in non gray options. Im going for white. I’m told there’s an 8 week wait...

The X-SPDIF 2 is 400 €. But like phoenixdogfan said, a basic format converter should suffice on the digital side, provided your PC has a SPDIF output (which a lot of recent motherboards have). Don't you think @EchoChamber ? Why get an X-SPDIF 2 if a basic format converter can do the job ?

I’m not trusting the S/PDIF output from my computer to be of good quality... I prefer to have an async USB output to a separate box. There are cheaper options, but the Matrix Audio solution is a well engineered one and feels like a finished product. Amir tested the X-SPDIF 2 here.

If D&D 8C Studio has all the features of the regular 8C except the lack of Roon support, I think that's highly overpriced! 2000 € just for Roon support ? I must be missing something. And why only Roon ? Why not just any other player ? Why pay 2000 € just for that ? In that case I could just get a pair of 8C Studio for 8000 € (+ taxes apparently), a SPDIF to AES/EBU converter (why use a DAC in this case ?), and I would be all set. Have I forgotten something ?

I think you pay for the different material in the cabinet and for the higher finish. All the extra tech also has some R&D cost involved.

As for Volume Control, at first I was thinking of doing it directly with foobar2000, since it handles volume over 32 bit, which leaves 16 bit of room in case of 16-bit audio files (99% of my files). So roughly speaking, you could lower the volume to about -96dB without affecting sound quality. However, maybe it's not so simple as S/N ratio could be affected by digital volume control, unless digital volume control has direct DAC access. Which means that I should mainly control volume with D&D or Genelec's Ethernet based app which (I suppose) has direct access to their own internal DACs, and only use foobar2000's volume control over a small range (10dB or so). What do you think ? I'm a bit lost here.

Yes, my understanding regarding digital volume is that the optimal setup would be to have the digital circuits in the monitors handle that task. Otherwise stick with a DAC and send the signal in analog.

 

[q3cpma]

Lots of interesting contributions in this thread. Thank you so much guys. Let's try to sum this up :

Genelec is a serious contender and they obviously know what they're doing. 8351B are an option, but maybe the 8361A could fit within my budget, and since I don't want to complicate things with additional subwoofers, maybe I should go the extra mile and get the 8361A directly. Not to mention that I plan to listen to them at 4-5 m distance, so not exactly near field... I've seen the 8361A at less than 10K$ (pair), but I haven't found any price in €... Why is it so difficult to find european prices for digital active monitors ?

It's a hard choice, but consider the following:

* The 8351B is better than the 8361A on everything except volume and baffle step: directivity is way smoother, which has a great important at such a long distance (almost diffuse field), on-axis is flatter and price is obviously lower. The thing is that your need for a subwoofer probably won't be cured just by going a bit bigger, which makes the 8361A not very useful.
Just remember that subwoofer integration is very easy with GLM, the setup complexity shouldn't be a reason for you to ignore subs.
* See https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors, at 5 m, the 8351B can still do 92 dB continuous / 102 dB peaks, while the 8361A does 99 / 108.
* These are very hard to find currently, I suggest you directly ask Genelec where to buy. Genelec's prices are generally quite inflated in the US, you could have a good surprise.
* The 1238A could be considered, but it's not the same weight class anymore.

On the other hand, don't discard Neumann's KH420, it's a serious beast, though not sporting the latest tech.

The X-SPDIF 2 is 400 €. But like phoenixdogfan said, a basic format converter should suffice on the digital side, provided your PC has a SPDIF output (which a lot of recent motherboards have). Don't you think @EchoChamber ? Why get an X-SPDIF 2 if a basic format converter can do the job ?

Well, the X-SPDIF is just a nice and pretty USB bus powered thing, and that way you don't need the cumbersome and pricy RCA -> BNC -> AES/EBU thing. Notice that you can get https://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/inte...2s-2x-tcxo-alimentation-230v-otg-p-10547.html for USB -> AES for 140€.

If D&D 8C Studio has all the features of the regular 8C except the lack of Roon support, I think that's highly overpriced! 2000 € just for Roon support ? I must be missing something. And why only Roon ? Why not just any other player ? Why pay 2000 € just for that ?

Roon is the latest fad, which means high price and demand from audiophiles. It's not bad, but it is bloated compared to something like foobar2000.

In that case I could just get a pair of 8C Studio for 8000 € (+ taxes apparently), a SPDIF to AES/EBU converter (why use a DAC in this case ?), and I would be all set. Have I forgotten something ?

You may have SPL problems, as it's a sealed 2 x 8" woofer system, but I doubt it's worse than the 8351B.

As for Volume Control, at first I was thinking of doing it directly with foobar2000, since it handles volume over 32 bit, which leaves 16 bit of room in case of 16-bit audio files (99% of my files). So roughly speaking, you could lower the volume to about -96dB without affecting sound quality. However, maybe it's not so simple as S/N ratio could be affected by digital volume control, unless digital volume control has direct DAC access. Which means that I should mainly control volume with D&D or Genelec's Ethernet based app which (I suppose) has direct access to their own internal DACs, and only use foobar2000's volume control over a small range (10dB or so). What do you think ? I'm a bit lost here.

That's what I'd do, use the AES/EBU input, but still do digital volume reduction on the computer.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

You guys are being so helpful ! I don't know why I didn't post this earlier !

@q3cpma, I have to say I agree with you ! 8351B seems a better pick than 8361A for my case, and I should consider getting subs and trusting GLM. But here's the thing : wouldn't a pair of 8351B plus a pair of subs be over my budget ? You live in France too, do you have any price info for all these beasts ?

If I could get a pair of 8351B + a pair of subs within my budget, that would be a major plus. But without the subs, wouldn't the D&D be a better option than a pair of 8351B without subs ?

As for the X-SPDIF, you guys are slowly convincing me that it's a good idea. That being said, I don't think it's USB-powered like you said. It still needs an external power source apparently : https://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/inte...khz-coaxial-aesebu-i2s-hdmi-lvds-p-11975.html

Actually what's the difference between the X-SPDIF and the XMOS U208 ? I don't get it !

As for the SPL, I don't think it should be a problem with the D&D's, with wall coupling and such. Of course I'll have to listen to them if I can. I have sent them an email requesting some additional info, including their upcoming volume thingy. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Hello and welcome, @Jose Hidalgo.

All which have been mentioned here (Genelec, D&D) are well-known to be accomplished designs. You can't go wrong with either.

Still, as an all-in-one solution, fitting in 38m2, I think new Buchardt A700 (+ Hub and remote) sounds like a good option:

It does seem to do all you're looking for. It has many digital inputs, including WiFi and Roon Endpoint.

Claims to go down to 17Hz in-room.

 

[q3cpma]

You guys are being so helpful ! I don't know why I didn't post this earlier !

@q3cpma, I have to say I agree with you ! 8351B seems a better pick than 8361A for my case, and I should consider getting subs and trusting GLM. But here's the thing : wouldn't a pair of 8351B plus a pair of subs be over my budget ? You live in France too, do you have any price info for all these beasts ?

Sadly, I can't find them anywhere, I suggest you email Genelec about this (prices and where to find) since Thomann doesn't seem to sell them. I do think that a pair of 8351B + 7370A has a chance to fit your budget; don't know if 2 x 7360A can replace a 7370A, I'd ask them directly; it's definitely too expensive, though.

If I could get a pair of 8351B + a pair of subs within my budget, that would be a major plus. But without the subs, wouldn't the D&D be a better option than a pair of 8351B without subs ?

Probably, but I wouldn't, personally, the software complexity and price/reliability ratio doesn't sit well with me; even with a 5 year warranty. From a performance point of view, there's nothing wrong to say, though.

As for the X-SPDIF, you guys are slowly convincing me that it's a good idea. That being said, I don't think it's USB-powered like you said. It still needs an external power source apparently : https://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/inte...khz-coaxial-aesebu-i2s-hdmi-lvds-p-11975.html

If you read carefully, it's optional. I fell into the same trap myself.

Still, don't forget that you can get the Neumann KH420 for 7400€/pair right now and won't need a sub for sure. You'll just have to do room correction yourself, but that's not that hard.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Lots of interesting contributions in this thread. Thank you so much guys. Let's try to sum this up :

Genelec is a serious contender and they obviously know what they're doing. 8351B are an option, but maybe the 8361A could fit within my budget, and since I don't want to complicate things with additional subwoofers, maybe I should go the extra mile and get the 8361A directly. Not to mention that I plan to listen to them at 4-5 m distance, so not exactly near field... I've seen the 8361A at less than 10K$ (pair), but I haven't found any price in €... Why is it so difficult to find european prices for digital active monitors ?

The X-SPDIF 2 is 400 €. But like phoenixdogfan said, a basic format converter should suffice on the digital side, provided your PC has a SPDIF output (which a lot of recent motherboards have). Don't you think @EchoChamber ? Why get an X-SPDIF 2 if a basic format converter can do the job ?

On the PC side, my player of choice is and will be foobar2000, as I have invested countless hours in customizing it to my very needs. So I don't know about other players like Roon and I'm not really interested (they can't provide higher quality than foobar2000 anyway). Which leads me to this :

If D&D 8C Studio has all the features of the regular 8C except the lack of Roon support, I think that's highly overpriced! 2000 € just for Roon support ? I must be missing something. And why only Roon ? Why not just any other player ? Why pay 2000 € just for that ? In that case I could just get a pair of 8C Studio for 8000 € (+ taxes apparently), a SPDIF to AES/EBU converter (why use a DAC in this case ?), and I would be all set. Have I forgotten something ?

As for Volume Control, at first I was thinking of doing it directly with foobar2000, since it handles volume over 32 bit, which leaves 16 bit of room in case of 16-bit audio files (99% of my files). So roughly speaking, you could lower the volume to about -96dB without affecting sound quality. However, maybe it's not so simple as S/N ratio could be affected by digital volume control, unless digital volume control has direct DAC access. Which means that I should mainly control volume with D&D or Genelec's Ethernet based app which (I suppose) has direct access to their own internal DACs, and only use foobar2000's volume control over a small range (10dB or so). What do you think ? I'm a bit lost here.

So to sum it up, my system could look like this in case of digital active monitors :

• PC --> SPDIF --> Passive Converter --> Digital AES/EBU --> Monitors (D&D, Genelec, GGNTKT...)
• PC --> Ethernet --> Home Ethernet Switch --> Ethernet --> Monitors (D&D, Genelec, GGNTKT...)
• Audio player : foobar2000
• Volume Control : mainly by manufacturer's app, residually by audio player

I don't mind having a double connection to the Monitors (Digital AES/EBU + Ethernet).

JRiver has a 64 bit digital volume control which means you should not have to worry at all about throwing away bits. It's only $60 USD and way more servicable (IMO) than Foobar 2000.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

@VintageFlanker , thanks for your insight. The A700 is kind of new though : I haven't found any reviews yet for it. The wireless feature looks interesting if quality isn't affected (can it handle a full uncompressed 24/192 data stream, buffer it on the speaker side and play it in perfect sync without jittering issues ?). And the "iPhone only" thing is a deal breaker for me. Oh, and the 2-year warranty only on the electronic parts is not so good either.

@phoenixdogfan : if you're talking about the software JRiver (that I've tried a few years ago BTW), then I'm sorry but it's 100% out of the question. I wouldn't change my foobar2000 for the world, and that's final. I've spend literally HUNDREDS of hours customizing it to my every need. No other software even comes close to that level of flexibility. Everything about foobar, from endless custom tag fields to Title Format and its own query language, not to mention heavy customization and 3rd party components, fits my needs. I will stick with foobar2000 until I'm dead, lol. If however you're talking about a piece of hardware, just let me know because I haven't found it.

@q3cpma : what do you mean by software complexity ? D&D software seemed pretty simple to me, whereas Genelec software seemed more complicated (and Kii software I don't know yet). But maybe I'm wrong.

About DRC, I'm sorry but I have never done it yet (I'm just an amateur in some aspects), so yes, I'm a bit afraid of doing it without any help.

Last but not least, there is this remaining question that remains unanswered, thanks in advance :

Actually what's the difference between the X-SPDIF and the XMOS U208 ? I don't get it !

 

[q3cpma]

@q3cpma : what do you mean by software complexity ? D&D software seemed pretty simple to me, whereas Genelec software seemed more complicated. But maybe I'm wrong.

D&D runs a complete webserver, which is simply a bad joke; I mean, even for a light one like Cherokee, Hiawatha or Lighttpd, we're talking ~100,000 lines of code. GLM is something you can just run once and disconnect, too.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I see. I personally don't care much about software complexity, but about software ease of use. In one of the videos about D&D that I watched yesterday, they mentioned 30.000 lines of code in the speakers. If GLM is a "run once and disconnect" kind of thing, all the better, but I hope it remains easy to use.

 

[pierre]

You guys are being so helpful ! I don't know why I didn't post this earlier !

@q3cpma, I have to say I agree with you ! 8351B seems a better pick than 8361A for my case, and I should consider getting subs and trusting GLM. But here's the thing : wouldn't a pair of 8351B plus a pair of subs be over my budget ? You live in France too, do you have any price info for all these beasts ?

If I could get a pair of 8351B + a pair of subs within my budget, that would be a major plus. But without the subs, wouldn't the D&D be a better option than a pair of 8351B without subs ?

As for the X-SPDIF, you guys are slowly convincing me that it's a good idea. That being said, I don't think it's USB-powered like you said. It still needs an external power source apparently : https://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/inte...khz-coaxial-aesebu-i2s-hdmi-lvds-p-11975.html

Actually what's the difference between the X-SPDIF and the XMOS U208 ? I don't get it !

As for the SPL, I don't think it should be a problem with the D&D's, with wall coupling and such. Of course I'll have to listen to them if I can. I have sent them an email requesting some additional info, including their upcoming volume thingy. I'll keep you guys posted.

in Switzerland 2x8361+7370 ~10k CHF, remove 7% tax add 20% TVA translate in euros and you are close to 10k.
call houseofsounds.ch for example and negociate a bit.

 

[GD Fan]

I see. I personally don't care much about software complexity, but about software ease of use. In one of the videos about D&D that I watched yesterday, they mentioned 30.000 lines of code in the speakers. If GLM is a "run once and disconnect" kind of thing, all the better, but I hope it remains easy to use.

I recently bought the Genelec 8320s for my home office. Having had no prior experience with room correction modules of any sort, and only extremely limited proficiency with REW, it came with some trepidation on my part for sure. But GLM is super easy, truly run once and disconnect should one so choose. That's what I did, but my sense was if you left it connected there was plenty of easy tinkering and customizing to do as well.

 

[pierre]

I see. I personally don't care much about software complexity, but about software ease of use. In one of the videos about D&D that I watched yesterday, they mentioned 30.000 lines of code in the speakers. If GLM is a "run once and disconnect" kind of thing, all the better, but I hope it remains easy to use.

anot her option are main monitors genelec 1238 (10k at global audio store from Bordeaux). Look is questionable but SPL is there.

 

[EchoChamber]

anot her option are main monitors genelec 1238 (10k at global audio store from Bordeaux). Look is questionable but SPL is there.

Re looks, I think the “egg shaped” Genelec 8XXX are still the most discrete visually within the pro monitor options, especially in white. Which is important if I’ll be looking at them everyday in my living room... I actually dig their non conventional, innovative industrial design.

 

[q3cpma]

Re looks, I think the “egg shaped” Genelec 8XXX are still the most discrete visually within the pro monitor options. Which is important if I’ll be looking at them everyday in my living room... I actually dig their non conventional, innovative industrial design.

But what if you want to drum on your chest like Tarzan everytime you look at them? The 1238 is perfect, then.