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10K€ System Challenge (specs inside)

Hi @MarsianC# :) About acoustic treatment, not for the current room. For the next one yes, but that's still a few years ahead !

Gosh, so many Genelec models ! :eek: That's too much, lol.
7 K€ a pair fits my budget, but not if I have to add Genelec subs I guess.

I'd like to emphasize that I'll keep an eye on all models mentioned in this thread (so there's no need to keep mentioning them), including the Neumann and the Buchardt. For example Buchardt sell directly from their website with very reasonable transport fees (and all taxes are included worldwide, which is amazing :oops:), plus they have a really nice hassle-free 45-day trial period which may be hard to resist. It could even allow me to compare different speakers in my own living room. Food for thought. I just wish their App can become Android-compatible sometime soon ! In the meantime I'm hoping for some reviews. I'd also like to find their max SPL @1m (continuous/peak) to compare them to the others. Does anybody have that info ?
 
Just guessing, 6" crossed at 250 Hz will limit max spl to somewhat around 105 dB @ 3% THD (not the best defintion, K2 is usually not as bad as K3). No clue how good their tweeter behaves.
so there's no need to keep mentioning them
Geithain - would be a shame not to take a look at their mad speakers ;)
Should i mention the genius Neumann 3" with huge waveguide? KH420 he he

Take a look on my collection of measurments in german HiFi-Forum. B&W 800D3 and other high end speakers included.
 
Geithain are kind enough to include the hearing distance range. For my application, only two monitors seem to fit : RL 930K (2-way coaxial, cardioid, but quite ugly IMHO), and their flagship ML 811 K1 which unfortunately we can forget since it's 25K€ a pair.

KH420 is still on the list. SPL-wise they provide lots of measurements so it's hard to pick one and compare it to the other monitors of this thread.

I have to say that I'm getting a bit lost in the subject. o_O I should have clearly stated the listening distance in the OP, instead of just providing room dimensions (to me it was obvious that the couch is at the back of the room, but it can't be obvious for anybody else). I guess short range monitors won't make the cut, and even some midrangers may be in trouble.
 
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I have to say that I'm getting a bit lost in the subject. o_O I should have clearly stated the listening distance in the OP, instead of just providing room dimensions (to me it was obvious that the couch is at the back of the room, but it can't be obvious for anybody else). I guess short range monitors won't make the cut, and even some midrangers may be in trouble.
You can always re-invision the layout of your listening area, i.e., bring the couch closer to the speakers. Check out Genelec speaker placement guides. A lot of good tips in there. When you’re down to 2 or 3 meters, you can get away with smaller monitors. I personally never had luck with big speakers in my modest 70m3 living room. But then again, I didn’t have GLM to calibrate and adjust all speakers.
 
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Not sure if this is helpful, I had created this diagram to compare sizes of different monitors I'm considering. To give me an idea of the different volumes and visual impact compared to my existing pair.
Monitor Sizes.png
 
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Thanks for your diagram, it sure helps. You could even think of adding models from other brands to make it even better ! :D You know, the usual names : Kii, D&D, Neumann, and maybe others mentioned in this thread.

Alas it's impossible for me to move the couch. Among other reasons because I also have a 3m cinema screen, which demands that the couch be close to the back wall. Here's a panoramic view so you can see it better :) (you can see the projector on top of the couch, and you can even see one of my 25 years old column speakers, it's really time that I change them) :

Panorama séjour 1 XL.jpg


Also, the table is about to change : the new table is much heavier (> 100 kg) and "connected" (several cables run from it under a floor cable guide), which means it can't just be moved. It's "connected" because it hosts the PC and screen from which I control the audio. ;)
 
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S&R Measurment S360
You will need subs, -6 dB at 36 Hz is not what you have asked for. Nevertheless, they can play quite (crazy) loud.
What about Geithain? Perfect for bigger listening distances. WAF might be a problem ;)
Ah any chance on (light) acoustic treatment?

PS: 3,5k in Germany

Personally, I would give up the idea of getting true full range at 5m. Only sub $10,000 speaker I'm aware of that can do real 20Hz extension at that distance is the JTR 215RT, but it's huge and may be a problem with aesthetics; also, not active. Also, no spinorama measurements, as far as I'm aware, though those measurements do exist for the 212RT now(and they look great, but not Genelec/Neumann great).

D&D and Kii will give you 20Hz extension, but at what cost? D&D says 108dB peak output, and they're so small, I feel like they'd struggle at 5m.

If it were me, I'd probably be leaning towards the Genelec 1238a or Neumann KH420. My listening habits are often fairly loud, though, and I don't find either of them unattractive. If those two are off the table, my next choice would probably be Genelec 8361a.

Finally, how about waiting for the GGTKT M2? Release date still says autumn 2020. Might be a good idea to wait a few months(if you can) just to see how that speaker stacks up when it comes out. The GGTKT M1 looks really good in terms of output and spinorama. It also does the D&D dispersion trickery, though not as low. If the M2 improves on the M1, it might be my first choice for a 5m distance, but I would wait and see.
 
I have high expectations too. Or go for the real M2, the JBL ones ;). A bit expensive...

Here is a spinorama for the smaller JTR Noesis 212RT.

Me too! Hopefully they provide detailed measurements, just as they did with the M1. I've been waiting for a company like D&D to offer a tower option at a reasonable price($30k isn't reasonable for me :rolleyes:). I end up putting bookshelfs on stands anyway, so they take up just as much space.
 
Thanks for your diagram, it sure helps. You could even think of adding models from other brands to make it even better ! :D You know, the usual names : Kii, D&D, Neumann, and maybe others mentioned in this thread.
Noted :)

Alas it's impossible for me to move the couch. Among other reasons because I also have a 3m cinema screen, which demands that the couch be close to the back wall. Here's a panoramic view so you can see it better :) (you can see the projector on top of the couch, and you can even see one of my 25 years old column speakers, it's really time that I change them) :

View attachment 78593

Also, the table is about to change : the new table is much heavier (> 100 kg) and "connected" (several cables run from it under a floor cable guide), which means it can't just be moved. It's "connected" because it hosts the PC and screen from which I control the audio. ;)
I’d envision moving the listening/viewing position to the middle of the room. You can test that arrangement by simply placing a chair temporarily in that position (and work out the constraints if that’s desirable). As an alternative, I’d also envision flipping your layout 90° so your speakers are against the long wall. That’s my current set up at home and it gives me a really wide soundstage, well outside of the speakers, sometimes I hear sounds to my right or left within a soundstage window of about 150° with some electronic recordings, e.g., Trentemøller.
 
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I’d envision moving the listening/viewing position to the middle of the room [...] I’d also envision flipping your layout 90° so your speakers are against the long wall.
Maybe for the next room, but not for this one ;)

Have you thought about DIY speaker build and PC based xo/drc ?
You mean designing them myself, or building somebody else's design ?
I've thought a LOT about building them myself. I've worked a lot on that matter, really. Parameters, calculations, endless simulations... only to find that I won't be able to achieve myself the level of performance any of those speakers can deliver. So that's unfortunately off the table.
Building somebody else's design would be an option, if somebody could give me a link to a working design that would be more suitable to my needs than the speakers mentioned in that thread, for a fraction of the cost (because surely I would need to add Amps, etc.). But it would really need to be worth the effort, otherwise I wouldn't bother.

And yes, my thoughts included PC based xo/drc, via software like IZotope Ozone (but that was more than 10 years ago, maybe there are other solutions by now).
 
Hi everybody,
I've been out of the game for a while and I'm looking for recommendations.

Considering how much you are willing to spend I recommend you get back 'on the game' immediately. :p
 
I’d envision moving the listening/viewing position to the middle of the room. You can test that arrangement by simply placing a chair temporarily in that position (and work out the constraints if that’s desirable). As an alternative, I’d also envision flipping your layout 90° so your speakers are against the long wall.
I would second this. A listening position right at a back wall is problematic due to combing from wall reflections, and would require absorption to be provided by acoustic treatment at said back wall at the very least.

At 5 m, what sort of angle between the speakers are you still getting? It would have to be fairly narrow, wouldn't it? That's a long way off either way. Usually this meana BIG speakers.

The room also looks too reflective in general still. Decent amount of diffusion but not a great deal of absorption - I'd assume this would be fairly live overall. Treatment for the ceiling and some of the naked walls should be considered.
 
Hi everybody,
I've been out of the game for a while and I'm looking for recommendations. I hope this is the right sub-forum for this.
I'm based in France, so some overseas products may not fit here IF there is a significant price increase due to $/€ parity or shipping costs.
I could have posted on other sub-forums (speakers, amps, etc.), but I believe in consistency of the whole system, so I think this project has to be considered as a whole.
Here's the info :

My current room is 5.6 x 4.6 m (25.75 m²), roof height 2.5 m.
My future room will be a 7 x 5.5 m (38.5 m²) dedicated basement, roof height 2.5 to 3 m.
I'd like to rebuild my whole Hi-Fi setup around a dedicated PC as sole source. So here are the expected chain links :

  1. Dedicated PC, which I already own. Player = foobar2000 (audio library of about 35.000 FLAC files ripped by myself) + additional software if required (please read on).
  2. Hi-Fi DAC(s) : 2 to 6 channels total. 2 in case of mono-amplification, 4 in case of bi-amp and 6 in case of tri-amp.
  3. Power Amp(s) : I don't need an integrated amp since the PC will be the sole source.
  4. A pair of Hi-Fi Loudspeakers.
    • They will need to cover most of the whole spectrum nicely : I don't want speakers that cut off too soon on the low range. Size is not an issue.
    • They shall allow for bi-amp / tri-amp if that's relevant.
    • I could maybe consider a 2.1 system, but I would have to be convinced that it sounds better than a 2.0, which I'm not currently. But who knows what's on the market.
I'm willing to spend about 10K€ for points 2, 3 and 4, including cabling. Maybe a tiny bit more if there's an unmissable deal.
My goal is measurable neutrality and fidelity to the source audio. If I want artificial harmonics to please my ears, I can add them later with a piece of software, but then it's not "Hi-Fi" anymore.

I'd like to discuss on recommendations, and also on the multi-amp issue : would it be more suitable given the budget to include a single, more expensive amp ? Or 2 or 3 less expensive ones, and have the PC manage the active filtering with software such as IZotope Ozone?

If I can get some nice recommendations, next step for me would be to contact some french resellers and go to their auditoriums.
I hope I haven't forgotten anything. Feel free to ask questions!

Thanks in advance for your help!

It seems to me you are wasting money getting a system that works in your current room if all the while you are preparing to use the basement. It makes more sense to me to wait until the basement is available. I know buying new kit is exciting but I'm going to suggest that instead, you sit back and consider all aspects of successfully converting your basement to a really good music listening room.

Firstly there will be issues of ventilation in a basement, as you will presumably want to close the doors. There may also be external noise or vibrations, you should consider your power supply and lighting, and most importantly, you ought to deal with room acoustics as you prepare everything. There are sites where people have described how they constructed their basement for music listening, including incorporating ventilation and acoustic treatment.

The biggest issue in all listening rooms is bass. No matter how good the quality of your audio gear, even if the source is reproduced perfectly from your PC to when it leaves your speakers, your room and its contents will interfere with the sound, depending mostly on the room's size and shape. I consider acoustic treatment, especially bass traps, to be essential to get the best sound whatever your source or speakers. Control the bass and you have solved 75% or so of acoustic problems. In the preparation of your basement this should be one of your priorities. You can control bass with careful positioning of speakers and chair, room treatment, DSP, and between one and four subs. Don't look at DSP/EQ as damaging the sound from your source but rather attempting to correct the sound that has been damaged by the room. Done well and you will actually hear what the music makers intended.

Meanwhile, in your current room, I suggest you keep your existing gear and include some DSP/EQ. As you use a PC (I presume this is a quiet PC with no noisy fan?) DSP software would make sense - I'm assuming your PC has the necessary processing power. Someone has mentioned JRiver. I use this and it has Parametric EQ (PEQ), which is essential to target specific bass issues. It also has a Graphic equaliser (GEQ). However it doesn't do measuring. Room EQ Wizard (REW) does very comprehensive measuring. There is other software that offers measuring plus does DSP, such as Acourate or Audessey. I think your time before you move into the basement could be used learning about room acoustics and experimenting with DSP and measuring.

When you get to looking for gear, as far as speakers go, there are many options - stereo, stereo plus centre channel, multi channel, subs (up to four, not so much to add bass but to help control bass issues in your room), active, active or passive crossovers, not to mention driver type such as ribbons or electrostats. Once you've decided on this, you can choose a power amp. As you will be using a power amp, you need a DAC with a volume control (or some other way of adjusting the volume).
 
http://gainphile.blogspot.com/
Super cool designs, S15 Econowave is on my list as fun project.
Thanks. I like their designs ! However I don't see any detailed blueprints, parts lists, estimated costs, etc.. Have I missed something ?

Now I'd like to address the various comments about my present and future room :
  • My goal is of course to pick the best system for my future, "ideal" room, not for my present one. So it the system sounds "good but not great" in my present room, it won't be a problem. I can live with it for a while.
  • I could of course wait until I have my future room, but it needs to be built from the ground up. Blueprints are on the way, but it's a 5-year project (maybe less), so don't assume that I'll have it quickly. And I don't want to wait 5 years without a decent system. My current system is really old and I'd like to change it within the next 6-9 months.
  • Sure, my present room is not perfect. It was never meant to be. My couch will remain at the back of the room for a lot of reasons, some already explained (this is not debatable, thanks ;)). Max I can move it is about 30cm. Room width is 4m50 so speakers can be separated by 3m50 to 4m, depending on their own width. Here are the hypothetical approximative angles to give you an idea :

2020.08.17 - 20.38.21.png
2020.08.17 - 20.38.06.png


Last but not least, lets try to focus on the hardware here (speakers, amps, DACs). My PC (which is quiet of course) has more than enough power for audio purposes, so there will be a time to discuss software, EQ, DSP, DRC, etc..
 
Have I missed something ?
Plans are hard to find, S15 and S20 are described well enough. But I don't think dipol is the way to go.
My goal is of course to pick the best system for my future, "ideal" room, not for my present one.
Ok, so lets talk about your future room. Acoustics, listening distance and max SPL. Then decide what solution will be the best.
Or if you ask me, buy something like the KH420. Not super large, not super duper capable in bass but also flexible in positioning due to their size. Think about a concept for your new room when you can walk into it. DBA/SBA/Multisub... whatever it takes.

For your current room, get a mic, measure the schiit out of it and try to find a compromise between bass response and stereo image. Use EQAPO or something similar to try EQing.
 
You mean designing them myself, or building somebody else's design ?
I've thought a LOT about building them myself. I've worked a lot on that matter, really. Parameters, calculations, endless simulations... only to find that I won't be able to achieve myself the level of performance any of those speakers can deliver. So that's unfortunately off the table.
Building somebody else's design would be an option, if somebody could give me a link to a working design that would be more suitable to my needs than the speakers mentioned in that thread, for a fraction of the cost (because surely I would need to add Amps, etc.). But it would really need to be worth the effort, otherwise I wouldn't bother.

And yes, my thoughts included PC based xo/drc, via software like IZotope Ozone (but that was more than 10 years ago, maybe there are other solutions by now).

These are my self-made speakers, based on Peter Morris PM60 project: 2 ways + Sub (sealed 18", my design), with digital xo and drc (audiolense). If You are interested I've pdf and drw drawings and You can find a lot of informations in the dedicated thread on soundforums.net

pm60.jpg
 
Plans are hard to find
Then we can't pursue. Too bad, the R16 seemed nice. :)

Ok, so lets talk about your future room. Acoustics, listening distance and max SPL
I think it's a bit too soon for that, and maybe a bit off-topic, but all right. :oops:
Since I'm designing it and it will be underground, I can do what I want (almost).
  • I can design it in order to have that perfect equilateral listening triangle.
  • I'm not much of a close field guy : I like space and soundstage, so the sides of the triangle will still need to be 3.50 m to 4 m each, no less.
  • I can avoid putting the future couch close to the back wall, so no worries on that side.
  • The speakers will probably be 30-50 cm close to the front wall, since I'll be looking for that nice wall coupling / cardioid effect.
  • Walls will be concrete, and acoustic treatment is possible if required.
  • Side walls don't have to be parallel (but front/back and floor/ceiling have to).
  • Room height can be between 2.5 m and 3 m.
  • Max dimensions are 7 x 5.5 m (depth x width), but it can be smaller if required. Any shape that fits within those dimensions.
  • SPL-wise, I guess when I'll want to go loud (rarely), 105dB @ couch (peak) would more than make my day, which makes 116-117 dB @ 1m (peak).
    That seems compatible with a lot of the mentioned speakers. For instance Kii = 115 dB (peak), D&D = 116 dB ? (peak - this is a guess), 8351B = 116 dB (peak), 8361A = 122 dB (peak)...
Does this help ?
 
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