10K€ System Challenge (specs inside)

[Jose Hidalgo]

Hi everybody,
I've been out of the game for a while and I'm looking for recommendations. I hope this is the right sub-forum for this.
I'm based in France, so some overseas products may not fit here IF there is a significant price increase due to $/€ parity or shipping costs.
I could have posted on other sub-forums (speakers, amps, etc.), but I believe in consistency of the whole system, so I think this project has to be considered as a whole.
Here's the info :

My current room is 5.6 x 4.6 m (25.75 m²), roof height 2.5 m.
My future room will be a 7 x 5.5 m (38.5 m²) dedicated basement, roof height 2.5 to 3 m.
I'd like to rebuild my whole Hi-Fi setup around a dedicated PC as sole source. So here are the expected chain links :

1. Dedicated PC, which I already own. Player = foobar2000 (audio library of about 35.000 FLAC files ripped by myself) + additional software if required (please read on).
2. Hi-Fi DAC(s) : 2 to 6 channels total. 2 in case of mono-amplification, 4 in case of bi-amp and 6 in case of tri-amp.
3. Power Amp(s) : I don't need an integrated amp since the PC will be the sole source.
4. A pair of Hi-Fi Loudspeakers.
   • They will need to cover most of the whole spectrum nicely : I don't want speakers that cut off too soon on the low range. Size is not an issue.
   • They shall allow for bi-amp / tri-amp if that's relevant.
   • I could maybe consider a 2.1 system, but I would have to be convinced that it sounds better than a 2.0, which I'm not currently. But who knows what's on the market.

I'm willing to spend about 10K€ for points 2, 3 and 4, including cabling. Maybe a tiny bit more if there's an unmissable deal.
My goal is measurable neutrality and fidelity to the source audio. If I want artificial harmonics to please my ears, I can add them later with a piece of software, but then it's not "Hi-Fi" anymore.

I'd like to discuss on recommendations, and also on the multi-amp issue : would it be more suitable given the budget to include a single, more expensive amp ? Or 2 or 3 less expensive ones, and have the PC manage the active filtering with software such as IZotope Ozone?

If I can get some nice recommendations, next step for me would be to contact some french resellers and go to their auditoriums.
I hope I haven't forgotten anything. Feel free to ask questions!

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[q3cpma]

With these requirements, why not active speakers, either studio or Hi-Fi? If you do consider them, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-would-also-be-offered-for-measurement.13437/ is the exact thread for you; the conclusion being mostly Neumann, Genelec or D&D.

 

[Tks]

If I were in the market for passives. I'd go with an Okto Research DAC(the only multi-channel DAC that I know stomps all others, and especially stomps every AVR out of relevance, so good if you end up moving from a 2 channel, to more channels later), and a Benchmark ABH2 amp, and call it a day (speakers are up to you personally, I don't know what qualifies as good beyond what's been reviewed here and perhaps a few other places).

I think a member here Orchard Audio sells pretty decently performing amps as well if the Benchmark is too much as a single unit.

But alas, I don't care much for passives(since family wouldn't allow something like Revel Tower speakers). And with that said, I'd just be looking at Genelec's since they've proven they can walk the talk. Simple and gets rid of the headache of having to worry about amping and such. I imagine a budget like yours really opens up options if you go the active speaker route.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks for your insight ! That's definitely interesting, because for unknown reasons I hadn't considered the active way. But that's definitely a serious option ! I will read the linked thread and maybe post there if needed. So let's keep this thread for passive speakers and power amps in that case. I'd like to have a "passive" solution to match the "active" one, and then listen and decide.

I'm glad you mentioned Okto Research because it was already on my DAC shortlist (I don't have a shortlist for the other items, only for the DAC). I have been to their website again, and I don't understand why the dac8 Stereo (2 channels) is actually more expensive than the dac8 Pro (8 channels).

The Benchmark ABH2 looks exceptional for $2999. Sadly in Europe it's quite more expensive at 3690 €. Still a good deal I guess. With that and a dac8 Pro, it would still leave 5000-6000 € for the speakers.

As for speakers, I'd love some recommendations, especially since AFAIK speakers tend to be the weakest link in a Hi-Fi chain, specs-wise.

Also, any hints on mono vs. bi or tri-amp ?

 

[jae]

1. Dutch & Dutch 8C
2. miniDSP UMIK-1

There, your system is done using your entire budget.

A great alternative to the ABH2 is a Purifi based amp, such as the Audiophonics HPA-S400ET or March Audio's P451 (mono). The stereo version (P452) should be out in the coming weeks I believe. You get comparable specs to the Benchmark amp and almost double the power, and more energy efficient as well since it is class D.

 

[pierre]

Another option (because you are in France) try 2 focal trio be6 with 2 subs (sub6). You can get a good discout if you buy the 4 the same day. Add a dac topping d50 or similar (or a dac with xlr out) a umik for measurements. ~6k total.
D&D are really good but are they under 10k? Genelec, Neumann etc are great too.

good points with the 2 subs you can mask some room modes.

 

[Willem]

It would be a bit over budget, but not by a huge margin: Quad 2805 or 2812 electrostatic speakers. Get yourself a refurbished Quad 606-2 or 909 power amplifier for a few hundred euros and a Topping usb dac and you are done with one of the most revealing and magically realistic speakers in the world. Admittedly they have their limitations (there are some work arounds for those) so not everyone likes them as much as I do.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Wow, it seems like you guys are mostly favoring active stuff !
I've been reading the other topic and I've watched some videos to get a grasp on the active monitors trend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there are three categories of speakers :
- Passive speakers, obviously (either classic design or electrostatic)
- Traditional active monitors (Genelec, Neumann, Focal...)
- New-gen active monitors (D&D, Kii, GGNTKT...)

New-gen seem to have interesting features for my use (a single digital source) : cardioid response to reduce room influence making installation easier, EQ capabilities, integrated DAC... All that is very tempting, provided low range response can meet my needs. I took a look at Kii BXT's before realizing they were 30.000 € And the Kii Audio Three without the BXT's don't seem to provide as much low range as the D&D, judging to what's been said in the other topic. So currently on the new-gen side for a 10K€ budget (more or less), D&D seems like a no-brainer They seem like a single product that would fit all my needs : DAC, amp, speakers, digital audio connection. But we'll have to wait and see what the GGNTKT M2 can deliver in a few months time. Am I right ?

Traditional active monitors are always an option, and sure, 2 subs are better than one for several reasons. But I'm worried about the complexity of the setup, with 2 monitors and 2 separated subs. I'm not an audio expert and I don't want to spend countless hours setting up everything for my room, only to redo everything when I move in a couple years. Like somebody else said in the other topic, maybe D&D can get you to 90% of the potential of a slightly better system, but at least you're sure to get there. Otherwise you may end up with a system capable of 100%, but that will ultimately deliver 80% or less because of a bad setup...

 

[EchoChamber]

Wow, it seems like you guys are mostly favoring active stuff !
I've been reading the other topic and I've watched some videos to get a grasp on the active monitors trend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there are three categories of speakers :
- Passive speakers, obviously (either classic design or electrostatic)
- Traditional active monitors (Genelec, Neumann, Focal...)
- New-gen active monitors (D&D, Kii, GGNTKT...)

New-gen seem to have interesting features for my use (a single digital source) : cardioid response to reduce room influence making installation easier, EQ capabilities, integrated DAC... All that is very tempting, provided low range response can meet my needs. I took a look at Kii BXT's before realizing they were 30.000 € And the Kii Audio Three without the BXT's don't seem to provide as much low range as the D&D, judging to what's been said in the other topic. So currently on the new-gen side for a 10K€ budget (more or less), D&D seems like a no-brainer They seem like a single product that would fit all my needs : DAC, amp, speakers, digital audio connection. But we'll have to wait and see what the GGNTKT M2 can deliver in a few months time. Am I right ?

Traditional active monitors are always an option, and sure, 2 subs are better than one for several reasons. But I'm worried about the complexity of the setup, with 2 monitors and 2 separated subs. I'm not an audio expert and I don't want to spend countless hours setting up everything for my room, only to redo everything when I move in a couple years. Like somebody else said in the other topic, maybe D&D can get you to 90% of the potential of a slightly better system, but at least you're sure to get there. Otherwise you may end up with a system capable of 100%, but that will ultimately deliver 80% or less because of a bad setup...

I’m about to buy a pair of Genelec The Ones, probably the 8351B, but I’m also considering the 8361A. I say skip the subs. I was never able to get them working properly in my living room. But if you go subs, Genelec’s sub integrate with the GLM system that’s able to optimize the full system together whether 2.0, 2.1, or 2.2. D&D and Kii also seem like good options, maybe a little above your budget. But for 10K euros, I’d definitely go for what’s most advanced in audio reproduction today.

If USB from a PC/Mac is your sole source, you could have a minimal system with Genelec’s. PC to USB to AES/EBU converter to Gen’s SAM monitors. Digital up to 24/196. And in parallel the GLM system to control the monitor’s volume.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

D & D 8C Studios weigh in at almost exactly $10k USD, which will leave you room for something like an Octo 8 Pro to use as a Preamp/DAC and still have 6 channels left over for surround sound.

If you want to go the passive route, I'd recommend keeping the Octo 8, investing in a Diy Purifi Eval 1 or Hypex NC400s with a Hypex Smps power supply and a Ghent case, and getting the best Revel F series or Be series speaker you can afford. You would be able to later supplement the bass with either SVS or Rel subs+Dirac Live with Bass control.

 

[Vini darko]

For some patriotism consider focal active speakers and velodyne subs. Mini dsp can take care of the rest.

 

[FrantzM]

1. Dutch & Dutch 8C
2. miniDSP UMIK-1

There, your system is done using your entire budget.

<snip>

End of the search...

More and more in my line of sight.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I’m about to buy a pair of Genelec The Ones, probably the 8351B, but I’m also considering the 8361A. I say skip the subs. I was never able to get them working properly in my living room. But if you go subs, Genelec’s GLM system are able to optimize the full system together whether 2.0, 2.1, or 2.2. D&D and Kii also seem like good options, maybe a little above your budget. But for 10K euros, I’d definitely go for what’s most advanced in audio reproduction today.

If USB from a PC/Mac is your sole source, you could have a minimal system with Genelec’s. PC to USB to AES/EBU converter to Active monitors. Digital up to 24/196. And in parallel the GLM system to control the monitor’s volume.

Your reply is most interesting! I'll definitely have to check Genelec as an alternative to D&D. Why would you choose one or the other ? On the other thread, the only argument I heard against D&D was "it's a young company, who knows about support in 10 years". I'm willing to take that risk. But maybe there are other arguments ?

Yes, a PC is my sole source. I don't want/need anything else. I haven't understood yet how D&D speakers work exactly. They have an Ethernet port, so I'm wondering : is it possible to stream all the audio digitally via Ethernet ? No USB, no DAC : PC -> Ethernet -> D&D. Or would I need a USB DAC anyway ? I have just read their user manual ( https://dutchdutch.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/8c-manual-English-november-2019.pdf ) but I'm still confused. Their website says this :

Besides balanced analogue or AES3 input, you will able in the near future to stream digital music directly to your 8c’s. Setup left and right position using your mobile device and the rest is done automatically.
Within your LAN, 8c’s can be grouped into multiple zones. Perfectly synchronized music can then be played effortlessly in those zones.

@phoenixdogfan , any thoughts on this ?

On the same subject, I have trouble understanding the difference between the regular 8C and the 8C Studio (besides the MDF). The 8C Studio are considerably cheaper (8 K€), but what is the downside ? If it's only the streaming thing, then maybe a "8C Studio + DAC" solution would be just as effective as a "8C regular" solution, while remaining a bit cheaper.

@Vini darko : haha, thanks, but I'm not french, I only live here for the moment, so patriotism isn't really a criteria. Good specs and easy configuration are.

 

[q3cpma]

Wow, it seems like you guys are mostly favoring active stuff !
I've been reading the other topic and I've watched some videos to get a grasp on the active monitors trend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there are three categories of speakers :
- Passive speakers, obviously (either classic design or electrostatic)
- Traditional active monitors (Genelec, Neumann, Focal...)
- New-gen active monitors (D&D, Kii, GGNTKT...)

Let's say that you have analogue active and digital active (digital as in DSP). Genelec has models of both sorts.

New-gen seem to have interesting features for my use (a single digital source) : cardioid response to reduce room influence making installation easier, EQ capabilities, integrated DAC... All that is very tempting, provided low range response can meet my needs. I took a look at Kii BXT's before realizing they were 30.000 € And the Kii Audio Three without the BXT's don't seem to provide as much low range as the D&D, judging to what's been said in the other topic. So currently on the new-gen side for a 10K€ budget (more or less), D&D seems like a no-brainer They seem like a single product that would fit all my needs : DAC, amp, speakers, digital audio connection. But we'll have to wait and see what the GGNTKT M2 can deliver in a few months time. Am I right ?

A fine analysis, the D&D 8c and GGNTKT M2 certainly are the most interesting full range speakers in your budget (well, we don't know the price of the M2, though). Genelec's 8351B or 8341A with a 7370A should also be considered, especially if you don't want too much hassle: GLM does frequency and phase correction for you.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

For some reason, my previous post was awaiting moderator approval until now, so I suggest you guys read it before pursuing the discussion. Thanks !

Yes, digital-active-speaker-wise, D&D 8C, GGNTKT M2 and Genelec seem to fit my criteria and be worthy of a good listen. Unfortunately D&D only has ONE french reseller, in Gap which is a tiny town hours from my place...

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

So I have found some more info on the D&D with this review : https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1270-dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeakers

It seems that if you feed them with an analog signal, it will be CONVERTED TO DIGITAL inside the D&D, then RE-CONVERTED TO ANALOG! Which is of course heresy.

So ideally these speakers should be fed a digital AES/EBU 110 Ohm signal. Which means that with these speakers I wouldn't need a DAC but rather an AES/EBU card (internal or external). Am I right ? Any thoughts on this ?

 

[EchoChamber]

Your reply is most interesting! I'll definitely have to check Genelec as an alternative to D&D. Why would you choose one or the other ? On the other thread, the only argument I heard against D&D was "it's a young company, who knows about support in 10 years". I'm willing to take that risk. But maybe there are other arguments ?

Well..., to start, the Genelec 8351B I’m favoring costs much less. They are pro monitors, not as luxurious as the D&D. I’m not interested in spending on “bling”, I do find them gorgeous though... But the main reason is that Genelec have been producing monitors for ages and do everything in house, everything in the monitor has been optimized and the coax 3-way design is really well designed IMO. I’m not saying D&D is not a great performer. I don’t really know because I can’t audition either. I’ll have to make a leap of faith. I’ve ordered a small Genelec 8030C for my home office system to have a taste for the Genelec sound. Everything is backed ordered though and it looks like I’ll only get them sometime in September...

Yes, a PC is my sole source. I don't want/need anything else. I haven't understood yet how D&D speakers work exactly. They have an Ethernet port, so I'm wondering : is it possible to stream all the audio digitally via Ethernet ? No USB, no DAC : PC -> Ethernet -> D&D. Or would I need a USB DAC anyway ?

D&D and Genelec seem to have similar interfaces. An analog and a digital input. And an Ethernet port for control (not a digital input). I’ve been talking to Genelec about the different inputs. If you go digital, D to A happens at the speaker after DSP and before the amps. And the optimal way to control the volume is through DSM which can happen on your computer or with a DSM volume control. Volume happens right before the signal is converted to analog and feeds the amps. Feeding it digitally would be the purist setup but you’d need to connect both AES and Ethernet to the monitors. One for the audio digital signal and the other to control volume.

I intend to use the Dac8 Stereo (waiting to be built and shipped) in that system because I need the convenience to easily toggle between multiple digital inputs. Genelec tells me I shouldn’t worry too much because the analog input is also very transparent. I'll have both analog and digital in parallel and will switch depending on the occasion - purity vs convenience.

@Vini darko : haha, thanks, but I'm not french, I only live here for the moment, so patriotism isn't really a criteria. Good specs and easy configuration are.

I usually go for merit instead of favoring a particular culture, even if my own. Je suis français... (ex-pat) ;-)

 

[EchoChamber]

So ideally these speakers should be fed a digital AES/EBU 110 Ohm signal. Which means that with these speakers I wouldn't need a DAC but rather an AES/EBU card (internal or external). Am I right ? Any thoughts on this ?

I plan to use the X-SPDIF 2 to convert USB to AES/EBU from my computer.

 

[EchoChamber]

@Jose Hidalgo check out this thread, it might interest you:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-disassembled-my-genelec-8351b.14874/

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I plan to use the X-SPDIF 2 to convert USB to AES/EBU from my computer.

Anything that outputs spidf can easily be converted to AES/EBU with a $40 converter.

And the Genelecs, D&D 8cs, and the GGNTKT all seem like interesting options. The GGNTKT seems like it's gone up in price before it's even been released. The UK vendor talks about it costing 5,000 GBP which is around $8k USD. I think that's a little steep for a not quite full range 2.5 way monitor from a brand new manufacturer. Would be a lot more attractive if it was selling at around $6k for US buyers which is what I originally was under the impression they would cost.

Major difference as I understand it between the Studio and the regular D&D is the cabinet is MDF rather than solid oak, and it won't have Roon capabilities. But it will have thread holes in it sides so it can be pole mounted which is a feature, I think.

Me, I'm not a Roon user anyway.