1 bit DAC launched by TOPPING

[Sokel]

This thread has some more information on DSD volume control.

Volume control when playing native DSD files

Hello guys, My system is comprised of an RME ADI-2 DAC, Hegel H20 power amp and Spendor D7 speakers. I am presently playing my CD library from a USB drive attached to my laptop and streaming Qobuz from the same laptop, connected by USB to the DAC. The problem is that, if I want to play DSD files...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Quoting MC_RME's post #11:

I try. As mentioned DoP is native DSD, the OP got confused with the two DSD playback modes of the ADI-2 DAC, Direct (no volume control) and 'normal' (the DAC chip converts DSD to PCM to be able to use volume control. Conversion and volume control happen directly in the DAC chip, while in PCM mode volume control is done by RME in the FPGA).​

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For many years most DACs used that internal conversion to PCM without telling the user. DACs with ESS chips have a digital volume control that claims to not use PCM conversion. The technique behind it is not disclosed by ESS, all we hear is third party wisdom about it, so pardon me to be sceptical.​

​

Regarding USB: indeed doesn't support DSD. DoP is a clever way to circumvent this restriction. Popular by the many DACs using an XMOS USB chip is a different, but basically identical workaround. Again PCM bits are used to transfer DSD, but in a so called Alternate Setting. Class Compliant devices can have several Alternate Settings, thus offering different modes (max sample rate, amount of channels and bit resolution). An operating system will only use the first Alternate Setting by default. The XMOS drivers are able to activate that other mode and then can transfer DSD via 32 bit PCM. The advantage is simlar to DoP: as this mode is hidden and normally not activated, the user will not have a blast of full level white noise when playing DSD via PCM.​

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As visuals are better:





PCM 96kHz and DSD128 native baseline/sanity check


Now level is reduced by DAC's side,signal used is 100Hz and lots of averages for easy low-dirt view :



PCM 96kHz at -12dB



DSD128 at -12dB



Both for easy view

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Anyway if you want eq just stick with rme

 

[mocenigo]

DSD also cancels any DSP done by MP/or any DSP engine prior to the DAC if played properly so EQ,RC,etc is off at the time is playing.

How can DSD “cancel” any DSP done previously?!? If you intend to say that you cannot DSP remaining throughout the whole computation in the DSD domain you are right.

 

[EddNog]

How can DSD “cancel” any DSP done previously?!? If you intend to say that you cannot DSP remaining throughout the whole computation in the DSD domain you are right.

It’s his caveat that, “if it’s played properly,” which implies no conversions to PCM and back before sending to the DAC, because the only way to apply DSP before it gets to the DAC, it would have to have had conversion to and from PCM in order to apply said DSP, which, in this context, is considered to be played wrongly.

-Ed

 

[CedarX]

Does not appear to be variable by channel. What I'd like to know is how this is applied...is it applied to PCM material before conversion to DSD/1-bit? So is this EQ unable to be applied when feeding DSD material? Or does it convert to PCM, apply EQ, then convert back to DSD before converting to analog?

From Topping Tune reference guide:

Confirms no EQ when feeding DSD.

 

[Sokel]

How can DSD “cancel” any DSP done previously?!? If you intend to say that you cannot DSP remaining throughout the whole computation in the DSD domain you are right.

"cancel" may be the wrong word,it would be better to say that it is not applied to it.

For example,lets assume someone plays foobar with Mathaudio EQ DSP for RC,which in contrary to others works with ASIO and WASAPI exclusive too.
While it will be applied to all PCM and at any sample rate,it won't do the same at DSD (measured and confirmed,same with any DSP)* .
It won't be any pause or something,foobar will just keep playing following any format but DSP will stay inert in case of DSD.

*it goes without saying that playing native DSD in foobar needs the right plug-in (SACD plug-in and DSD+ASIO plug-in ) configured not to convert them to PCM.
If these plug-ins are not installed and configured properly DSD is converted to PCM or doesn't play at all,no matter if stereo or multichannel.

 

[Roland68]

I was looking at the D50 III u til I realised it won’t support PEQ on optical intput. I feed my DX3Pro+ from my CD player over toslink.
I honestly would assume optical input would be a main use-case as due to lack of ability to EQ on something like a CD player.
Hopefully this is start of PEQ being added into some of their products, and hopefully the DX line

Sorry, I missed that. I thought it was like the TOPPING D90 III Discrete.

 

[mocenigo]

It’s his caveat that, “if it’s played properly,” which implies no conversions to PCM and back before sending to the DAC, because the only way to apply DSP before it gets to the DAC, it would have to have had conversion to and from PCM in order to apply said DSP, which, in this context, is considered to be played wrongly.

-Ed

Yes but then it bypasses the DSP, not cancels it.

 

[Sokel]

Yes but then it bypasses the DSP, not cancels it.

Yes,or deactivates even better as DSP are usually in what's described as "active DSP" list,etc.
Translating is hard

 

[HD800Fan]

$1k

(not surprising since the previous flagship dac was $900)

 

[Human Bass]

For the R2R market, it is rather affordable, especially with the native EQ

 

[EddNog]

For the R2R market, it is rather affordable, especially with the native EQ

It’s not standard (PCM) R-2R, it’s native 1-bit (DSD), so PCM material goes through an extra conversion on this DAC.

-Ed

 

[Human Bass]

It’s not standard (PCM) R-2R, it’s native 1-bit (DSD), so PCM material goes through an extra conversion on this DAC.

-Ed

Just to beat PS Audio at their own game

 

[EddNog]

Just to beat PS Audio at their own game

PS Audio fans won’t be swayed by better measurements or price. They like what they like. Paul McGowan is a very, very persuasive guy.

-Ed

 

[HD800Fan]

Maybe the subjectivists will finally glaze over a Topping DAC since it's discrete and four figures

 

[Mnyb]

There are many ways to crack the pot it’s take some ingenuity to make a “different” DAC , the game is storytelling.

No doubt actual objective performance will be top notch, but you need to market/pander somehow.

 

[DLS79]

No doubt actual objective performance will be top notch, but you need to market/pander somehow.

This is the thing i dislike most about modern sales and marketing.

 

[EddNog]

This is the thing i dislike most about modern sales and marketing.

Which Paul McGowan is an absolute expert at, modern sales & marketing. Hah!

-Ed

 

[Sokel]

There are many ways to crack the pot it’s take some ingenuity to make a “different” DAC , the game is storytelling.

No doubt actual objective performance will be top notch, but you need to market/pander somehow.

Yes,but one must choose sides telling its story.
When advocating for performance vs price It's almost a betrayal to turn this story upside-down.

It's almost the same story with these "sound colors" who degrade SINAD by 60-70dB but this time the victim is not performance.
On the other hand money is nice,I'm the first to advocate for that,no matter where they come from.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

What I see is a solution in search of a problem.

Sometimes, you are not the customer and that's OK. This isn't for you.

Having other areas of research and topologies available in the marketplace are good, if we want progress. These discrete solution give more "levers to pull" versus chip dac and they can get some unique performance characteristics that give this a reason for being. It might not be better in all respects but they will fid a market.