1 bit DAC launched by TOPPING

[Tuner]

The Topping D90III Discrete has been released. Measurements look fantastic with a 10-band PEQ. Is this worth buying if I need a good DAC/Pre-amp?

D90 III Discrete - - Topping audio

TOPPING, born in 2008, has evolved into a beloved global HIFI brand favored by users worldwide. We firmly believe that higher-quality music playback devices are essential for truly showcasing the allure of music. By investing extensively in professional technology and exceptional industrial...

www.toppingaudio.com

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

I wonder eq probably only with USB inputting?

 

[staticV3]

I wonder eq probably only with USB inputting?

Post #3 has your answer...

 

[Deleted member 72219]

I wonder eq probably only with USB inputting?

All inputs except IIS/I2S support the parametric EQ, which is limited to 192KHz sample rate/32-bits resolution.

-Ed

 

[D2013]

Post #3 has your answer...

It's on the product page as well as an * on one of the images.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/62c3bb6dd801788403ab8f8e/66df9877422f1be5194a3d09_66df97ba3acdd828bcedc0dc_D90%2520III%2520Discrete-EN-08.jpeg

What we don't know for sure is if the eq is global like the D50 III, or if it can very per channel.

 

[Deleted member 72219]

It's on the product page as well as an * on one of the images.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/62c3bb6dd801788403ab8f8e/66df9877422f1be5194a3d09_66df97ba3acdd828bcedc0dc_D90%2520III%2520Discrete-EN-08.jpeg

What we don't know for sure is if the eq is global like the D50 III, or if it can very per channel.

Does not appear to be variable by channel. What I'd like to know is how this is applied...is it applied to PCM material before conversion to DSD/1-bit? So is this EQ unable to be applied when feeding DSD material? Or does it convert to PCM, apply EQ, then convert back to DSD before converting to analog?

Also...in Preamp mode, is volume control in the digital domain? If so, is this done with PCM signal before conversion to DSD/1-bit?

-Ed

 

[Sokel]

It's on the product page as well as an * on one of the images.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/62c3bb6dd801788403ab8f8e/66df9877422f1be5194a3d09_66df97ba3acdd828bcedc0dc_D90%2520III%2520Discrete-EN-08.jpeg

What we don't know for sure is if the eq is global like the D50 III, or if it can very per channel.

Judging by the wording is identical to D50 III,so global at the time.Let's hope is done properly this time.

 

[Pearljam5000]

How does it compare to Wiim Ultra

 

[NTK]

Does not appear to be variable by channel. What I'd like to know is how this is applied...is it applied to PCM material before conversion to DSD/1-bit? So is this EQ unable to be applied when feeding DSD material? Or does it convert to PCM, apply EQ, then convert back to DSD before converting to analog?

Also...in Preamp mode, is volume control in the digital domain? If so, is this done with PCM signal before conversion to DSD/1-bit?

-Ed

Once it is in DSD, you cannot edit or process it anymore (natively in DSD). DSD authoring tools companies had to "invent" "DXD" or "DSD-wide", which are just PCM formats, to dupe people into thinking that no PCM is involved in making their music.

Direct Stream Digital - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deleted member 72219]

Once it is in DSD, you cannot edit or process it anymore (natively in DSD). DSD authoring tools companies had to "invent" "DXD" or "DSD-wide", which are just PCM formats, to dupe people into thinking that no PCM is involved in making their music.

Direct Stream Digital - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That is my understanding as well, hence my questions.

In particular volume since that at least could be done in the analog domain, but that would cost money to do it right, and I don’t see them doing it that way.

-Ed

 

[Kfnakand]

This looks like an interesting product but a little expensive for my budget, I hope they cascade the PEQ feature to some of their DX line such as DX3Pro+
Kev

 

[Roland68]

This looks like an interesting product but a little expensive for my budget, I hope they cascade the PEQ feature to some of their DX line such as DX3Pro+
Kev

TOPPING D50 III costs less than a quarter.
Together with the A50 III it is a perfect combination.

 

[Kfnakand]

TOPPING D50 III costs less than a quarter.
Together with the A50 III it is a perfect combination.

I was looking at the D50 III u til I realised it won’t support PEQ on optical intput. I feed my DX3Pro+ from my CD player over toslink.
I honestly would assume optical input would be a main use-case as due to lack of ability to EQ on something like a CD player.
Hopefully this is start of PEQ being added into some of their products, and hopefully the DX line

 

[antcollinet]

.is it applied to PCM material before conversion to DSD/1-bit?

Yes - you can't do DSP on DSD streams.

Or does it convert to PCM, apply EQ, then convert back to DSD before converting to analog?

This.


EDIT : Ninjad by @NTK

 

[Deleted member 72219]

Yes - you can't do DSP on DSD streams.



This.


EDIT : Ninjad by @NTK

So we can assume that volume is also done this way, in the digital domain, rather than in the analog domain.

-Ed

 

[Sokel]

That is my understanding as well, hence my questions.

In particular volume since that at least could be done in the analog domain, but that would cost money to do it right, and I don’t see them doing it that way.

-Ed

DSD also cancels any DSP done by MP/or any DSP engine prior to the DAC if played properly so EQ,RC,etc is off at the time is playing.

 

[antcollinet]

So we can assume that volume is also done this way, in the digital domain, rather than in the analog domain.

-Ed

Yes - if done in the digital domain, it is just (very simple) DSP. Some devices do it in the analogue domain though. I think RME even has a mixed solution.

 

[Sokel]

Yes - if done in the digital domain, it is just (very simple) DSP. Some devices do it in the analogue domain though. I think RME even has a mixed solution.

Strangely the Khadas TB/Ian Canada ESS controller combo does VC (that's double checked,one can even tell by the clean waveform of the DSD,without the hump).
If other ESS DACs do it too there's surely some conversion in there,can't imagine VC is some hybrid way after the conversion.

What's odd in this particular case is that the resulted signal is DSD and not PCM (Khadas TB - style) like.So there's either an added or missing stage somewhere in the scheme.

 

[NTK]

This thread has some more information on DSD volume control.

Volume control when playing native DSD files

Hello guys, My system is comprised of an RME ADI-2 DAC, Hegel H20 power amp and Spendor D7 speakers. I am presently playing my CD library from a USB drive attached to my laptop and streaming Qobuz from the same laptop, connected by USB to the DAC. The problem is that, if I want to play DSD files...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Quoting MC_RME's post #11:

I try. As mentioned DoP is native DSD, the OP got confused with the two DSD playback modes of the ADI-2 DAC, Direct (no volume control) and 'normal' (the DAC chip converts DSD to PCM to be able to use volume control. Conversion and volume control happen directly in the DAC chip, while in PCM mode volume control is done by RME in the FPGA).​

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For many years most DACs used that internal conversion to PCM without telling the user. DACs with ESS chips have a digital volume control that claims to not use PCM conversion. The technique behind it is not disclosed by ESS, all we hear is third party wisdom about it, so pardon me to be sceptical.​

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Regarding USB: indeed doesn't support DSD. DoP is a clever way to circumvent this restriction. Popular by the many DACs using an XMOS USB chip is a different, but basically identical workaround. Again PCM bits are used to transfer DSD, but in a so called Alternate Setting. Class Compliant devices can have several Alternate Settings, thus offering different modes (max sample rate, amount of channels and bit resolution). An operating system will only use the first Alternate Setting by default. The XMOS drivers are able to activate that other mode and then can transfer DSD via 32 bit PCM. The advantage is simlar to DoP: as this mode is hidden and normally not activated, the user will not have a blast of full level white noise when playing DSD via PCM.​

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[Sokel]

​

For many years most DACs used that internal conversion to PCM without telling the user. DACs with ESS chips have a digital volume control that claims to not use PCM conversion. The technique behind it is not disclosed by ESS, all we hear is third party wisdom about it, so pardon me to be sceptical.​

​

​

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They surely do something different for DSD,the difference at the same (reduced by DAC) levels is vast looking at the distortion structure,etc.
Khadas's flaw (the low level dirt present in PCM which moves proportionally to the signal) is absent or greatly reduced with DSD.

Better DACs may hide that as this dirt does not exist (I hope) so it's hard to see the effect.