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Stereophile and Audio Cables

Zapper

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One can talk about reviewers imagining sounds, e.g. perhaps this cable review or other implausible tweaks. But that doesn't speak to a listener's innacuracy - literally everyone is prone to hearing differences. Even Amir points out he seems to hear differences when switching cables, even when he knows they aren't really audibly altering the signal. That anyone is susceptible to such bias doesn't necessarily mean they don't have somewhat accurate hearing for real sonic differences.
But given their flamboyant descriptions of dramatic sonic effects due to what cannot physically be more than minute differences, how can one take anything they say seriously, even if they can on occasion hear real, rather than imagined, differences? We, the readers, have no means to separate their imaginary insights from their real insights.

Maybe you have followed certain reviewers long enough to understand their preferences and biases, and their preferences and biases are consistent enough, that their opinions convey useful information to you. Perhaps you have owned or auditioned several or many pieces of equipment that they have reviewed and can correlate your impressions with theirs. As I do not have that basis of experience to filter their opinions, those opinions have little value to me.
 

Doodski

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But given their flamboyant descriptions of dramatic sonic effects due to what cannot physically be more than minute differences, how can one take anything they say seriously, even if they can on occasion hear real, rather than imagined, differences? We, the readers, have no means to separate their imaginary insights from their real insights.
^^^ This.
It's absurd. We know it; they know it.. No more to say about it. :facepalm:
 
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MattHooper

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.

Maybe you have followed certain reviewers long enough to understand their preferences and biases, and their preferences and biases are consistent enough, that their opinions convey useful information to you. Perhaps you have owned or auditioned several or many pieces of equipment that they have reviewed and can correlate your impressions with theirs.

Correct. :)

As I do not have that basis of experience to filter their opinions, those opinions have little value to me.

Sure, that makes sense.

It's absurd. We know it; they know it.. No more to say about it.

Suit yourself. I've found the plenty of print subjective reviews, and even some of the dreaded internet audiophile reviewers, have done a good job of describing the sonic characteristics in comparing loudspeakers (particularly ones I'm familiar with).
 

Doodski

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Suit yourself. I've found the plenty of print subjective reviews, and even some of the dreaded internet audiophile reviewers, have done a good job of describing the sonic characteristics in comparing loudspeakers (particularly ones I'm familiar with).
I must have missed the good ones because all I have seen is FluFFY articles. What are your sources?
 

Somafunk

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^^^ This.
It's absurd. We know it; they know it.. No more to say about it. :facepalm:

And they know…. that we know…. that they know what we know….so that’s all good then. ;)
 
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MattHooper

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I must have missed the good ones because all I have seen is FluFFY articles. What are your sources?

I presume any subjective source will be "fluffy" to you, so would that matter?
 

Doodski

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I presume any subjective source will be "fluffy" to you, so would that matter?
Hmmz... I have never been antagonistic toward you and with that question I was dead pan seriously looking for something interesting to read... After stirring my cheese sauce a couple hundred times...LoL.. I decided that you are correct. I might not like it if it is subjective.
 
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MattHooper

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Hmmz... I have never been antagonistic toward you and with that question I was dead pan seriously looking for something interesting to read... After stirring my cheese sauce a couple hundred times...LoL.. I decided that you are correct. I might not like it if it is subjective.

I took your interest as honest. It's just a tough call. I mean, I could point you to reviews that I think capture the sound very well of speakers I own or I'm really familiar with. But if you don't put any weight in to subjective prose and haven't heard them yourself to compare, I'm not sure it would be of any use to you.

I could point you to, say, a Fremer review were he got some stuff right in the sound of a speaker vs the measurements, but I figure that if you just have the measurements the descriptions would be useless anyway. So, again, given our different approach I'm not sure what could satisfy you. That was my thinking. Cheers.
 

Sal1950

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The question isn't whether you agree with Stereophile's approach. Obviously you don't. The issue is denigrating someone's honesty.
And "he should know better" simply is NOT conclusive in that account. That's just not the way humans often work. There really is a range of human belief
which will include those who have a lot of technical experience, but who may have come to different conclusions than you or others at ASR.
It doesn't mean they are being dishonest.
First, and we've been down this road before but I'll let J. Gordon Holt speak for me, he's much better at it.

"Do you still feel the high-end audio industry has lost its way in the manner you described 15 years ago?
John Atkinson"

"Not in the same manner; there's no hope now. Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes. As Art Dudley so succinctly said [in his January 2004 "Listening," see "Letters," p.9], fidelity is irrelevant to music."
Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision.
JGH"

"Do you see any signs of future vitality in high-end audio?
John Atkinson"

"Vitality? Don't make me laugh. Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me, because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel. For the record: I never, ever claimed that measurements don't matter. What I said (and very often, at that) was, they don't always tell the whole story. Not quite the same thing.
JGH"

Now if the editorial policy of Stereophile is to take that (dark side) path, fine and good.
A damn shame, but it's their magazine.
BUT then we come back around to Mr. Atkinson himself, he is the one that's supposed to represent the light side of the force there, the guy that does the measurements and understands their implications. Unfortunately when we get to something like that Spec amp he ducks any discussion on how that amps technical failings are probably audibly effecting the sound of what the listener hears. Often we get to more radical cases where things like SET amps and their transformers interface with many of the recommended speakers to provide a freq response that's insanely wild, not to mention the distortion specs, the exact opposite of a straight wire with gain. He's the guy there that is supposed to "know his schitt (and he does)" but does he ever use that knowledge in an attempt to educate the less tech minded readers? Does the "measurement guy" ever attempt to influence the readership in a more positive direction? Nope, he can't say anything that might upset an advertiser or even a reader that may be in love with their distorted sound.
Where do you see the integrity of how he handles the position he holds there.
 

Doodski

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I took your interest as honest. It's just a tough call. I mean, I could point you to reviews that I think capture the sound very well of speakers I own or I'm really familiar with. But if you don't put any weight in to subjective prose and haven't heard them yourself to compare, I'm not sure it would be of any use to you.

I could point you to, say, a Fremer review were he got some stuff right in the sound of a speaker vs the measurements, but I figure that if you just have the measurements the descriptions would be useless anyway. So, again, given our different approach I'm not sure what could satisfy you. That was my thinking. Cheers.
Thanks MuchO. >@*_^@<
 

Sal1950

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I could point you to, say, a Fremer review were he got some stuff right in the sound of a speaker vs the measurements, but I figure that if you just have the measurements the descriptions would be useless anyway.
What makes you say that? Why do you attempt to devalue his position by trying to box him into an "all amps sound the same" ?
 
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MattHooper

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"
"Vitality? Don't make me laugh. Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me, because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel.

I've expressed agreement with that Holt quote before. I'd love to see more blind testing used in the audio mags.

For the record: I never, ever claimed that measurements don't matter. What I said (and very often, at that) was, they don't always tell the whole story. Not quite the same thing.
JGH"

Which as I understand it, is also JA's position on measurements.

Now if the editorial policy of Stereophile is to take that (dark side) path, fine and good.
A damn shame, but it's their magazine.
BUT then we come back around to Mr. Atkinson himself, he is the one that's supposed to represent the light side of the force there, the guy that does the measurements and understands their implications. Unfortunately when we get to something like that Spec amp he ducks any discussion on how that amps technical failings are probably audibly effecting the sound of what the listener hears. Often we get to more radical cases where things like SET amps and their transformers interface with many of the recommended speakers to provide a freq response that's insanely wild, not to mention the distortion specs, the exact opposite of a straight wire with gain. He's the guy there that is supposed to "know his schitt (and he does)" but does he ever use that knowledge in an attempt to educate the less tech minded readers? Does the "measurement guy" ever attempt to influence the readership in a more positive direction? Nope, he can't say anything that might upset an advertiser or even a reader that may be in love with their distorted sound.
Where do you see the integrity of how he handles the position he holds there.

He was running a magazine which favours subjective impressions above all. That is always going to skew the direction he'd take in interpreting measurements. Since he was editor for a long time, I think it's safe to presume that generally reflects his view. So...yeah...different approach than ASR, but doesn't mean he's being dishonest.

What makes you say that? Why do you attempt to devalue his position by trying to box him into an "all amps sound the same" ?

Where did you get that from? My point is that if I point him to a stereophile review with both the subjective description and measurements, even if the reviewer mentioned some things that tracked with the measurements, I'd presume Doodski would feel "well, ok, even if the reviewer picked up on this here or there, the measurements still tell me more, and more precisely, what I want to know, so who cares about the subjective description part?" That was my hunch anyway.
 

Doodski

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Where did you get that from? My point is that if I point him to a stereophile review with both the subjective description and measurements, even if the reviewer mentioned some things that tracked with the measurements, I'd presume Doodski would feel "well, ok, even if the reviewer picked up on this here or there, the measurements still tell me more, and more precisely, what I want to know, so who cares about the subjective description part?" That was my hunch anyway.
I admit you are a step ahead of me and my thinking method again although it is the subjective prose and the subjective descriptions that matter to me in a subjective speaker test methodology. With speakers I am very subjective upon deciding my boundaries and let the music speak for itself and speakers sing per say. I don't select a speaker based on anechoic metering methodology. I never have let the measurement speak 100% in speaker selection. I look for comfort, fun factor, lots of scintillation in the very high frequencies so that I get sizzle from trumpets, ripping horns and real definition in cymbals... The bass is not so important to me.
 

Sal1950

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So...yeah...different approach than ASR, but doesn't mean he's being dishonest.
When his education and long term "real world" knowledge is in direct opposition to much of what he
supports in Stereophile, Yea, it does Power cables don't sound different.

Where did you get that from?
You, don't try to dance around what you said with some fancy wordsmanship.
 
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MattHooper

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You, don't try to dance around what you said with some fancy wordsmanship.

Doodski understood what I was saying. And I have explained to you exactly what I meant, which had nothing to do with your strange claim of "trying to box him into an "all amps sound the same"

Instead of taking the civil conversation route "oh, I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying" you instead double down, as if my own explanation is wrong and your misunderstanding is correct, and so it must be that I'm being dishonest and evasive.

This isn't a good way to communicate Sal. And it's indicative of your approach to Atkinson as well.
 
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MattHooper

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Can't believe we're defending Stereophile's pandering to the cable idiocy.

Jeeze...are you doing that?

Personally, I think the cable review was ridiculous. Like pretty much every cable review I can think of.

But if you wanna defend it, that's your right...
 

Chrispy

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Jeeze...are you doing that?

Personally, I think the cable review was ridiculous. Like pretty much every cable review I can think of.

But if you wanna defend it, that's your right...
LOL seems you are. I meant some of the group, maybe I should have been more specific about "we", it wasn't a Royal we....
 
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