Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[HarmonicTHD]

No, I was thinking to connect the 5 DACs to the ADC directly. The measurement microphone is not suitable for capturing music as far as I now.

Now I am thinking that maybe my audio interface doesn't have the required input. I will have to check for that because on my understanding the XLR connectors are meant to be used with instruments not with the typical 4 volts that DACs provides.

… and you will measure the ADC performance essentially which is a flat FR and a SINAD of ca 95dB if I remember correctly from my 4i4 loop-back tests some two years ago. The DACs will most likely still perform better as your ADC. And again both measurable differences in ADC and DAC will remain inaudible provided one conducts a proper level matched and „blind“ listening test as described here

 

[Newman]

…In my business (investing) accepting unsupported claims for the sake of group solidarity is absolutely deadly. An old boss of mine, in the course of praising me on this point, reminded me not to bring that attitude home.

I think some audio hobbyists want community discussion forums to feel more like home than work. I get that.

And I think we at ASR can meet that wish, with the single "line in the sand" being poetic descriptions of sound quality attributes assumed to be in the sound waves themselves, when the evidence is too strong that it is primarily something else.

Cheers

 

[BDWoody]

Because I can clearly spot differences in sound between different components that are not shown on the measurements.

Well, you believe you do.

Unfortunately, actual evidence is harder to come up with. Claims are easy.

 

[bodhi]

I think some audio hobbyists want community discussion forums to feel more like home than work. I get that.

Exactly this. So, maybe one more additional reminder in some welcome package to new users, a trigger warning: "you will get asked for proof if you claim things that don't make sense".

 

[Killingbeans]

Can't be illusions of the mind when all the people that visit me hears the same and found the same colorations that I have.

Completely on their own?

You never expressed any indications of what they were supposed to listen for, or jumped on specifics when they were doing emotional braindumping?

 

[JustJones]

Can't be illusions of the mind when all the people that visit me hears the same and found the same colorations that I have.

Huge red flag. Everyone hears the same thing ? Even with some prompting this is nonsense and is the type of crap trolls post.

 

[pkane]

View attachment 346536

Where did you find my photo???

 

[Mikig]

I understand the reasons of both, those who say they feel a difference, those who say that the differences, if there are, are always accompanied by incontrovertible scientific data. But I have a general question.
If this were the case,
- if the greater performance comes from components that are as "clean" as possible, with measurement above any suspicion of signal degradation,

- if clearly beyond an audible threshold the differences no longer count because they are obviously not audible,

- if devices source do not have particular different sound timbres, because very often they use the same components implemented only for the famous SINAD race

- if with blind tests the “sound characteristics” of the components often objectively "disappear" or are no longer so decisive, which instead would appear in subjective and non-scientific tests.

then the answer takes shape: the speakers are the only defendants to have a different "timbre" or sound "character",

so the question is? we should all have a system, which starting from the excellent measurements made on this site, must, and I repeat must, to be above all suspicion, be: Topping LA90, Benchmark LA4 and SMSL SU-10.
From memory, these are the world champions of measurement, and therefore the only candidates to be in our systems....
do we have all these systems?? I would say no, why?? objectively it would be the best!! what led us to choose other components that objectively are not as performing???

 

[GXAlan]

Well, you believe you do.

Unfortunately, actual evidence is harder to come up with. Claims are easy.

@Bozon : as much grief as you are getting because the majority of us believe you are wrong, please also know that the group here will also help you as much as we can to TRY to help you get evidence.

You have tools like DeltaWave which have a higher chance of false positives (showing differences where there are none) but your ADC will be fine.

Through these tests, I have also shown discoveries like how DACs will process PCM and DSD differently. You can have the same digital volume when analyzing the file digitally, compare using ABX testing and identify. But when you measure the actual analog output from the DAC, you see that the DSD output is slightly louder, and if you then adjust volume so that the analog performance is identical (even though digitally it is not), then it becomes much harder to hear a difference.

 

[Killingbeans]

then the answer takes shape: the speakers are the only defendants to have a different "timbre" or sound "character",

Also headphones. And amplifiers when pushed beyond their comfort zone.

do we have all these systems?? I would say no, why??

Because there's a huge difference between artifacts detectable under the most optimal synthetic testing conditions, and those being evident and bothersome when simply listening to music.

We all like to see ourselves as infallible creatures who can only be satisfied by perfection, but in reality it doesn't take much to make us happy.

what led us to choose other components that objectively are not as performing???

Their looks, their user interface, their build quality, the story surrounding them (often complete BS), their reputation (justified or not), the mood and setting when you "auditioned" them, the skills of the salesman who presented them to you etc. etc.

There's a large amount of emotional attachments that can make us rebrand defects as "character", assuming they are even audible to being with.

 

[BDWoody]

I would say no, why?? objectively it would be the best!! what led us to choose other components that objectively are not as performing???

Because beyond some point it doesn't matter. My old Krell or Adcom amps don't sound any better or worse than my Devialet or even my Denon receiver.

Transducers are where it gets more complicated.

Do you have a feel for how small these noise and distortion signals are?

The Shoutometer

We've all seen the Sound Pressure Level decibel reference tables where you have "quiet room", "chainsaw", "jet engine" and so on. While that is handy for estimating increased loudness in decibles, it didn't help me when thinking about the measurement levels obtained around here when measuring...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[rsoffer]

Thanks. I will follow your recommendations.

There's a lot of back and forth and explaining around why you believe there are audible differences, and then our ASR crowd talking about scientific methodology, etc.

I see this pretty simply. All we ask is that if the amp differences are so apparent, simply choose the most different amps you have available, do a blind test, and record the process. That's it.

Why can't we get to this simple place?

 

[Mikig]

Because beyond some point it doesn't matter. My old Krell or Adcom amps don't sound any better or worse than my Devialet or even my Denon receiver.

Transducers are where it gets more complicated.

Do you have a feel for how small these noise and distortion signals are?

The Shoutometer

We've all seen the Sound Pressure Level decibel reference tables where you have "quiet room", "chainsaw", "jet engine" and so on. While that is handy for estimating increased loudness in decibles, it didn't help me when thinking about the measurement levels obtained around here when measuring...

audiosciencereview.com

Thank you!! The table in the link is interesting...

but the question I ask you is: why did you change your amplifier? obviously excluding breakages and aging.
If they had offered you the same Krell at 0 kilometers would you have taken it again? or did you prefer the Devialt because it convinced you more!

PS my questions in these posts are made to establish, I believe , how an "objectivist" chooses a product unlike a "subjectivist"

 

[krabapple]

There's a lot of back and forth and explaining around why you believe there are audible differences, and then our ASR crowd talking about scientific methodology, etc.

I see this pretty simply. All we ask is that if the amp differences are so apparent, simply choose the most different amps you have available, do a blind test, and record the process. That's it.

Why can't we get to this simple place?

To be fair it requires careful level matching as well as (double) blind testing setup, care taken not to stress out either amp, and a certain investment of testing time. So it's not simple.

What that means to the Bozons of the world is, don't make such difference claims in the first place without proper qualifications to your claim. That IS as simple as writing..'but it was done sighted, so I could be wrong'.

 

[Mikig]

Also headphones. And amplifiers when pushed beyond their comfort zone.



Because there's a huge difference between artifacts detectable under the most optimal synthetic testing conditions, and those being evident and bothersome when simply listening to music.

We all like to see ourselves as infallible creatures who can only be satisfied by perfection, but in reality it doesn't take much to make us happy.



Their looks, their user interface, their build quality, the story surrounding them (often complete BS), their reputation (justified or not), the mood and setting when you "auditioned" them, the skills of the salesman who presented them to you etc. etc.

There's a large amount of emotional attachments that can make us rebrand defects as "character", assuming they are even audible to being with.

Sorry, I excluded headphones and only talked about hi fi with speakers because I don't use them, so I didn't consider them!

in what percentage do you think these physical, shape, advertising and sales characteristics that you indicated at the end of your intervention, affect a choice, with respect to the measurements and objective parameters of a product?

 

[voodooless]

Huge red flag. Everyone hears the same thing ?

Except when someone says they don’t, then suddenly everyone has different hearing

 

[rsoffer]

To be fair it requires careful level matching as well as (double) blind testing setup, care taken not to stress out either amp, and a certain investment of testing time. So it's not simple.

What that means to the Bozons of the world is, don't make such difference claims in the first place without proper qualifications to your claim. That IS as simple as writing..'but it was done sighted, so I could be wrong'.

Yes, I don't think one needs to go wild for an initial test. And if they did a decent job, then you can work on making it more rigorous with a third party observer, etc. The bar has been so low, no one has even attempted to record even a decent attempt at a blind test.

Even if it's not double blinded, just single blinded... and with level matching done via a mic, it would be a step forward. With decent level matching via a mic on my iPhone, I was unable to hear a difference between my amps even sighted! So I don't think we need to go too crazy for some initial testing.

Just get the ball rolling.

 

[DonR]

Huge red flag. Everyone hears the same thing ? Even with some prompting this is nonsense and is the type of crap trolls post.

Could be past influence. When sighting a McIntosh amp, everyone thinks "warm" because that is what reviews have been saying for ages even if objectively they are probably just neutral.

 

[BDWoody]

why did you change your amplifier? obviously excluding breakages and aging.
If they had offered you the same Krell at 0 kilometers would you have taken it again? or did you prefer the Devialt because it convinced you more!

I've never really changed amplifiers, I've just added them when setting up another system, or when adding channels when I had passive speakers in my theater. I bought pretty much all of my gear used, and bought good gear when I found a good deal.

The Krell is an old school beast that I use to power my subwoofers. The Devialet I thought was sexy, has a very good phono preamp and looked good in my office.

I also have an old Luxman preamp with far worse noise measurements than a good modern preamp, but the only time I would hear it is if I cranked the gain way up with no signal or during a silent part of a recording, when that low level 60Hz hum will become audible. Otherwise, it doesn't. It also has a bunch of very convenient tone, tilt and balance controls, along with various high and low cut fillers that are fun to play with and useful when playing records.

I think the forum members are too often misrepresented by the disingenuous or the ignorant as being against the fun or passion of music and this hobby, when nothing could be further from the truth.

We just don't like being sold silly stories by those who've gotten away with taking advantage of a trusting customer base for far too long.

 

[Ricardus]

That is why there are people that love some X brand sound and rejects others. If all properly made amplifiers sound the same there would be no reason for the big amount of brands and models on the market on the first place.

Right. But if expensive/exclusive brands didn't exit then narcissists like Jay couldn't have youtube channels.