Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Emdub]

You are wrong my friend, I am an expert in testing high-end equipment, I have a music production studio in which I spent more than $100,000, I have tested dacs from several brands, I even have an Apogee Symphony desktop, which costs $1600, It has a 9028 pro chip, and the d90se sounds much better than this one and others that I have tried. I have my control room acoustically conditioned and calibrated with a frequency response of +-3 db throughout the frequency range, and I can assure you. that not only do dacs sound very different, but even changing a cheap power cable for a more expensive one also makes a difference. Those of you who say that there is no difference, it is because you do not have adequate equipment or listening place, to be able to hear that difference my friend. These dacs are not for everyone, they are for people who have very high-end equipment. I have it and I can confirm that there is a big difference. In case you wanted to know, you can ask me whatever you want, I am at your disposal. greetings from Spain.

Whenever I see a post like this, I’m reminded of a Caldwell cartoon

 

[ahofer]

Whenever I see a post like this, I’m reminded of a Caldwell cartoon View attachment 345055

I think of this:

Expert Management: Lessons from Stephen Potter’s Lifemanship

Potter instructs how to disconcert an expert who is giving a talk. Cogg-Willoughby had two special gambits for use against psychiatrists and psychologists.

www.heretical.com

 

[G-rig]

That's right, plenty of different music available to listen to. People are more worried about things they can't hear, worried about the tech, nit-picking and imperfections and not enjoying the music. I like a wide variety, and it's nice when you come across a recording that is nicely mastered (read dynamic range).

 

[DSJR]

In some cases, the version at places like HD Tracks will have higher dynamic range. It varies album to album though. Not all remasters are crushed. I tried a few recent 70's rock SACDs from Mofi and Analogue productions and the dynamic range and remaster in general was good. The issue I ran into with some albums from the Cars, Eagles, Steely Dan, and Alan Parsons Project was when I compared the remaster to the original 80's CD releases there just wasn't that much difference for general listening. If you really focused and did an A and B you could pick out slight changes but the remasters in general were unnecessary. There wasn't anything wrong with the original releases. I stopped picking up new remasters unless the original CD was just impossible to find.

It just comes across as a marketing gimmick. I'm sure there is a case here or there where an album was mastered poorly on its initial CD release but I doubt it is common. I've also heard the argument that 80's CDs are too flat sounding, but I would rather have that and EQ it to my own liking.

Alan Parsons ? - My original CD of I Robot had a nasty dropout during the intro to the first track cured in the remaster.. I'd have thought Steely Dan would have been done right first time, but are you saying that more recent releases have been messed with? I'd have thought this particular artist (the surviving one) would have had something to say and an influence...

 

[Nutul]

not only do dacs sound very different, but even changing a cheap power cable for a more expensive one also makes a difference. Those of you who say that there is no difference, it is because you do not have adequate equipment or listening place, to be able to hear that difference my friend.

 

[aagstn]

Alan Parsons ? - My original CD of I Robot had a nasty dropout during the intro to the first track cured in the remaster.. I'd have thought Steely Dan would have been done right first time, but are you saying that more recent releases have been messed with? I'd have thought this particular artist (the surviving one) would have had something to say and an influence...

The Steely Dan releases done by Analogue Products sound good to me, but so do the original CDs. The differences are pretty subtle to my ears. I would think most people would be just as happy with the 80's CDs which are much less expensive. I'm not hating on the work done by Mofi or Analogue Productions. I just don't know if I would say any of the $30 SACDs I have tried from either company are a major upgrade over the original CDs you can probably find for much less. There are probably specific titles that are worth it. I didn't know about the dropout on I Robot. The Mofi SACD I have doesn't seem to have that issue.

At the very least, those two companies generally seem to be handling digital remasters without crushing dynamic range so at least there are some options for classic albums.

 

[Art of sound]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the CHORD Mojo 2 portable, battery operated stereo DAC and headphone amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $799.
View attachment 207887
The Mojo 2 is solidly built. While I am definitely not a fan of multi-color interface, the buttons feel better in this model and some of the lights kind of make sense (e.g. showing volume level).

Input interfaces are crammed into one side but it is workable and I appreciate having dual USB input jack options (USB-C and Micro-USB):
View attachment 207888

On the other side there are two headphone jacks:

View attachment 207889

I am unclear why in this day and age of personalized music consumption, one would want to share the device with another person listening to the same content.

I charged the unit and tested it with USB input and the left headphone jack out.

Chord Mojo 2 DAC Measurements
Let's treat the unit as a DAC by adjusting the output to 2 volts and run our tests:
View attachment 207892

This would be an excellent performance for a desktop DAC and superb for a portable one:

View attachment 207893

You get slightly better performance if you allow the output voltage to go up higher:
View attachment 207894

Dynamic range is again, competitive for desktop DAC and excellent for a portable one:

View attachment 207895

Claim to fame of Chord DACs is their high-tap reconstruction filters. I was pleased to see it deliver the best performance I have seen in just about any DAC:
View attachment 207896

You get the full audio band to nearly 22 kHz and then excellent attenuation. This is what I hope every DAC chip/company implements instead of the lazy ones we see where cut off is at 24 kHz.

Linearity is excellent:
View attachment 207897

Multitone shows impressively low distortion levels:

View attachment 207898

IMD distortion test shows very well behaved response, again rivaling good desktop products:
View attachment 207899

Jitter was a bit disappointing given how good the device is otherwise:
View attachment 207900

But not remotely an audible issue.

Sweeping frequencies we see a slight rise in distortion with frequency:
View attachment 207901

We can confirm that by running a spectrum analysis:

View attachment 207902

Chord Mojo 2 Headphone Amplifier
We can let the device loose by maxing its volume and see how well it produces power, starting with 300 ohm load:
View attachment 207903

My threshold for desktop products is 100 milliwatts and this is close. Noise and distortion are impressively low. Switching to 32 ohm load we get similar results:

View attachment 207904

Checking for noise at tough 50 mv shows middling performance:
View attachment 207905

View attachment 207906

So careful with ultra sensitive IEMs.

Chord Mojo 2 Listening Tests
As usual, I started with my Sennheiser HD-650 headphone to test high impedance response. Sound was wonderful and there was enough volume/dynamics to bring out the bass out of this headphone. Switching to Drop Ether CX, there was even more volume available before slight distortion set in at max volume. I then plugged in the torcher test: Dan Clark Stealth which is my everyday headphone. Volume dropped quite a bit. Increasing it using the controls on Mojo 2 created static proportional to how much I cranked it up. Unless you are happy with pretty soft volume, it is not usable with Stealth (not that it would be in portable class).

Conclusions
Company is know for overdesigning its reconstruction filters. I see no benefit in that but the implement of Mojo 2 has definitely benefited from excellent engineering and closed loop (with measurement) design. Even as a desktop DAC it would be an excellent product. As a portable battery operated one, I think but I suspect it is the best I have tested.

It is my pleasure to recommend the CHORD Mojo 2. Yes, the price is up there but at least you get great objective performance to go with it.

---------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

This is my first expensive dac. I was always skeptical of expensive dac's but after having owned this for over 2 months i can say that the timbre properties of a dac do matter. maybe you need headphones/earphones that scale with sound. i have a pair of orchestra lite earphones that do so i can immediately notice the natural way everything sounds. I wish there were experiments to test this hypothesis with specific measurements in the digital spectrum.

soundsource on mac + EQ profile matching IEF (crinacle) with a subbass shelf under 150Hz + wiim mini (spotify connect or airplay) 16but 44.1 but still better than my desktop fiio K7 marginally on most gear. over a longer listening session i can tell the timbre is making a difference than anything else and also the natural decay that people talk about in an expensive dac without sounding too harsh.

 

[antcollinet]

This is my first expensive dac. I was always skeptical of expensive dac's but after having owned this for over 2 months i can say that the timbre properties of a dac do matter. maybe you need headphones/earphones that scale with sound. i have a pair of orchestra lite earphones that do so i can immediately notice the natural way everything sounds. I wish there were experiments to test this hypothesis with specific measurements in the digital spectrum.

soundsource on mac + EQ profile matching IEF (crinacle) with a subbass shelf under 150Hz + wiim mini (spotify connect or airplay) 16but 44.1 but still better than my desktop fiio K7 marginally on most gear. over a longer listening session i can tell the timbre is making a difference than anything else and also the natural decay that people talk about in an expensive dac without sounding too harsh.

Come back when you've tested blind and accurately (with a DVM) level matched, all other parameters unchanged, including similar filter types, and have been able to tell which DAC is which at least 9 out of 10 times : Then we might have something to talk about.

 

[BDWoody]

I wish there were experiments to test this hypothesis with specific measurements in the digital spectrum.

Let's start with validating the claim first.

 

[trevor_bartram]

Both my present 25 year old Panasonic DVD A-110 (DVDA DACs) & my deceased 20+ year old NAD C540 (Burr-Brown DACs) players have a natural 'analog' sound. I compared my Schiitt Modi with the A-110 (via its coax output), with the Modi the vocals are not as well fleshed out, cymbols are splashy & there's more sibilance. The Modi gets great reviews but I'm not impressed. The A-110 only plays CDs (not CDR or SACD) & DVD (for soundtracks) is no longer reliable (weak laser). Which DAC tested here has the type of sound I'm looking for?
P.S. The DAC should have switchable coax/optical inputs & will normally be used with a Sony BDP-S3700 player (coax) & an Echo Link (optical). Thanks in advance!

 

[krabapple]

...is broken

 

[staticV3]

Ensure that both devices receive the same data and output the same voltage and the sound will most likely be identical between the Panasonic and Schiit.

In short: you need to diligently control variables for meaningful A/B results.

 

[gvl]

This is my subjective opinion but I have experienced this phenomenon when moving from older DACs to newer hardware, I believe this is mostly imaginary but there are likely subtle differences that are amplified by human brain. I suggest you keep listening to the Mody until your brain adjusts. Also I think newer cleaner DAC may emphasize issues within your speakers such as them being bright sounding in principle, you probably want to get some room measurements to see if EQ is needed to correct your room/speakers.

 

[312elements]

Both my present 25 year old Panasonic DVD A-110 (DVDA DACs) & my deceased 20+ year old NAD C540 (Burr-Brown DACs) players have a natural 'analog' sound. I compared my Schiitt Modi with the A-110 (via its coax output), with the Modi the vocals are not as well fleshed out, cymbols are splashy & there's more sibilance. The Modi gets great reviews but I'm not impressed. The A-110 only plays CDs (not CDR or SACD) & DVD (for soundtracks) is no longer reliable (weak laser). Which DAC tested here has the type of sound I'm looking for?
P.S. The DAC should have switchable coax/optical inputs & will normally be used with a Sony BDP-S3700 player (coax) & an Echo Link (optical). Thanks in advance!

I don’t think you’re going to find the answer you’re looking for in this forum. That said, if I were in your shoes based on the little bit of information you’ve shared I’d be looking for a used denafrips Aries II. I think you’ll have similar problems with any of the top measuring DACs tested here.

 

[trevor_bartram]

Ensure that both devices receive the same data and output the same voltage and the sound will most likely be identical between the Panasonic and Schiit.

In short: you need to diligently control variables for meaningful A/B results.

Thanks for the reply. I have no way of checking if the data are identical but it comes from the same source (A-110) & goes into the same amplifier (NAD C340) & speakers?

 

[trevor_bartram]

This is my subjective opinion but I have experienced this phenomenon when moving from older DACs to newer hardware, I believe this is mostly imaginary but there are likely subtle differences that are amplified by human brain. I suggest you keep listening to the Mody until your brain adjusts. Also I think newer cleaner DAC may emphasize issues within your speakers such as them being bright sounding in principle, you probably want to get some room measurements to see if EQ is needed to correct your room/speakers.

The differences are subtle but enough to make the Modi unpleasant in comparison. Could the Modi be defective? My speakers, Q-Acoustics 3050s, are not bright, although some of the later models, 3050i & Concepts etc are said to be brighter & more revealing. Presently the Modi is mainly used with the Echo Link. Streamed MP3 classical & jazz (WCRB, WQXR, KKJZ) sound fine (to excellent) but no comparisons are being made?

 

[GXAlan]

See if you like DSEE HX with Sony Music Center for the PC (free). If you do, just get a UBP-X800M2 to output to a transparent DAC. I don’t know if it will output SACD via PCM over Coax or if you need HDMI.

The only DAC that sounds analog is the TA-ZH1ES. Measurements here:

Sony TA-ZH1ES: A DAC/Headphone Amp with a Sonic Signature?

Sony TA-ZH1ES: A DAC/Headphone Amp with a Sonic Signature? Stop. やめる. Halt. Arrêt. You probably shouldn’t read the rest of this post, it's triggering. There's a lot of speculation even though there are a good amount of measurements too. If you're looking for a transparent DAC/headphone...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[trevor_bartram]

See if you like DSEE HX with Sony Music Center for the PC (free). If you do, just get a UBP-X800M2 to output to a transparent DAC. I don’t know if it will output SACD via PCM over Coax or if you need HDMI.

The only DAC that sounds analog is the TA-ZH1ES. Measurements here:

Sony TA-ZH1ES: A DAC/Headphone Amp with a Sonic Signature?

Sony TA-ZH1ES: A DAC/Headphone Amp with a Sonic Signature? Stop. やめる. Halt. Arrêt. You probably shouldn’t read the rest of this post, it's triggering. There's a lot of speculation even though there are a good amount of measurements too. If you're looking for a transparent DAC/headphone...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That's out of my league, price wise. Of course, an alternative approach is to replace my A-110 with a current CD/Blu-ray player with exceptional audio, any suggestions?

P.S. I already have a backup A-110. It plays DVD & CD but unfortunately has a tray fault that may or may not be the drive, possibly circuits on the main board. When my A-110 fails, I'll swap trays first, if that doesn't work, swap drives to find out the cause. Lots of options!

 

[Peerke007]

SMSL D300 is, according to some, an analog sounding DAC. I have one and use it. My ears are not good enough to determine whether I think the sound is analog or not, sorry for that. There is a thread at stevehoffman forum, where people claim it is analog sounding.

For me, it works fine. I enjoy my music a lot.

I only use COAX from streamer to DAC, so I have no issues like mentioned over here in the D300 thread.

 

[GXAlan]

The hard part is that the D300 has a Rohm chip which measures pretty well. This makes analog vs not analog more likely to be sighted bias.

SMSL D300 Review (Balanced DAC)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new SMSL D300 stereo USB DAC. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $399.99. I am pleased with the refinements of LCD and controls: The LCD no longer has that fuzzy look of prior SMSL products. And the flush mounted buttons look more...

www.audiosciencereview.com