Do I even need a DAC/Amp for the Hifiman HE1000 Stealth (v4)?

[SimpleAuricle]

I've been grappling with a question recently: the necessity and impact of a DAC/amp on high-end headphones, specifically the HiFiMan HE1000 Stealth.

I currently own the HE1000 Stealth and have recently started using them directly with my 2019 MacBook Pro and iPhone via the Apple dongle instead of a separate dac/amp. To my ears, they sound quite good. However, I've also experimented with the EF400 and noticed a subtle but distinct difference in sound—it seems a bit more "airy." Similarly, the iFi Gryphon offered a slightly different auditory experience.

This has led me to a crossroads of confusion. There's a lot of hype and conflicting opinions online about the need for DACs and amps, especially for low-impedance, planar magnetic headphones like mine. Some say it's essential, while others suggest it's not as critical.

Here are my key questions for the community:

1. Necessity of a DAC/Amp: Is there a consensus on whether a DAC/amp is truly necessary for headphones like the HE1000 Stealth? Could the differences I'm hearing be due to intentional distortion or coloration from the amps?

2. Sound Quality: For those of you who have experience with the HE1000 Stealth, did you find that a DAC/amp significantly improved the sound quality? If so, in what ways?

3. Product Recommendations: If you do believe a DAC/amp is beneficial, could you recommend some high-quality options that pair well with the HE1000 Stealth? I'm looking for something that can bring out the best in these headphones without overspending for no reason or ending up with an over-hyped product.

4. Cost vs. Benefit: With the high price tags on some of these audio components, I'm trying to understand the cost-benefit ratio. Why are some DACs and amps so expensive, and is the investment justified by the improvement in sound quality? After perusing post after post, I feel more confused than before. My current understanding is that any well designed DAC should be transparent, and you only need an Amp if your source isn't powerful enough. And the reason to buy an amp is for the sound signature of that product?

I appreciate any insights or personal experiences you can share. Your advice will help me (and perhaps others in a similar situation) make a more informed decision.

Thank you in advance!

 

[LTig]

To put it short: if your current setup is loud enough, does not buzz, hiss or clip, and the output impedance is a tenth or less of the lowest impedance of the headphone, you're good and a another amp won't sound audibly different.

 

[SimpleAuricle]

Thanks for your reply! I learned about the "tenth or less" rule today!

HIFIMAN HE1000 Stealth Headphones Specifications:​

• Impedance: 32Ω
• Sensitivity: 93dB
• Frequency Response: 8Hz-65kHz

Application of the 'Tenth or Less' Rule:​

• Headphone Impedance: 32Ω (HIFIMAN HE1000 Stealth)
• Desired Output Impedance: Less than 3.2Ω (one-tenth of 32Ω)

The 'tenth or less' rule is satisfied in the case of the HIFIMAN HE1000 Stealth headphones and the Apple dongle (both USB-c and lightning versions) and probably my MacBook too (While the exact output impedance of the MacBook Pro 2019's headphone jack is not explicitly stated, given that Apple designs its headphone jacks to accommodate a broad spectrum of headphones and considering the low impedance of the HIFIMAN HE1000 Stealth, it's reasonable to infer that the MacBook Pro 2019's headphone jack has an output impedance significantly lower than 3.2Ω, adhering to the 'tenth or less' rule.)

I am so shocked that, according to this rule, I don't think I need a dac or amp since the apple dongle is loud enough, does not buzz, hiss or clip... So all those Youtubers and people on reddit recommending dacs and amps for the HE1000 stealth, are they just misinformed?

 

[LTig]

I am so shocked that, according to this rule, I don't think I need a dac or amp since the apple dongle is loud enough, does not buzz, hiss or clip... So all those Youtubers and people on reddit recommending dacs and amps for the HE1000 stealth, are they just misinformed?

When listening without strict controls and non blind, all bets are off. Unfortunately this is how we humans are "wired". It happened to me also.

 

[Jimbob54]

Thanks for your reply! I learned about the "tenth or less" rule today!

HIFIMAN HE1000 Stealth Headphones Specifications:​

• Impedance: 32Ω
• Sensitivity: 93dB
• Frequency Response: 8Hz-65kHz

Application of the 'Tenth or Less' Rule:​

• Headphone Impedance: 32Ω (HIFIMAN HE1000 Stealth)
• Desired Output Impedance: Less than 3.2Ω (one-tenth of 32Ω)

The 'tenth or less' rule is satisfied in the case of the HIFIMAN HE1000 Stealth headphones and the Apple dongle (both USB-c and lightning versions) and probably my MacBook too (While the exact output impedance of the MacBook Pro 2019's headphone jack is not explicitly stated, given that Apple designs its headphone jacks to accommodate a broad spectrum of headphones and considering the low impedance of the HIFIMAN HE1000 Stealth, it's reasonable to infer that the MacBook Pro 2019's headphone jack has an output impedance significantly lower than 3.2Ω, adhering to the 'tenth or less' rule.)

I am so shocked that, according to this rule, I don't think I need a dac or amp since the apple dongle is loud enough, does not buzz, hiss or clip... So all those Youtubers and people on reddit recommending dacs and amps for the HE1000 stealth, are they just misinformed?

The 2 big caveats are; you likely don't know how loud you listen compared to others and also , if you start adding significant eq into the mix , you can use up headroom in any source device pretty quickly.

That said , for you with those headphones the apple dongle obviously is enough . If you never max it , never look back.

 

[widemediaphotography]

I have got the HE1000 Stealth, my gear is audio-pc/streamer, smsl DO300 (DAC) and Violectric V222 (Headphone amplifier) in balanced mode. There is a huge difference if I connect that headphone directly to my good Yamaha AV amplifier. Hifiman EF400 (I tried it), in my opinion, is not good solution for best performance of HE1000 Stealth. That DAC/amplifier colors the sound!

 

[DayDiner1969]

In reality, there is significant gray area beyond “if the numbers match you can’t hear a difference”. Double blind studies are wielded as proof, yet I rarely if ever hear an elaboration of the methodology used in these studies, nor the quantitative results. I have found double blind studies of true high end audio equipment rare, very often with small sample sizes of untrained listeners. Additionally they often (maybe exclusively) use a short term ABX testing methodology that is in no way representative of how I (and presumably others) actually listen to music when testing equipment.

Anyone with a science background could tell you that science cannot prove a negative. It’s just not how science works (yes, science is a specific process, and measuring something is not science). The way science “proves” something like “using any DAC with X measurements is audibly identical” is with detailed and repeated testing over many scenarios and with large sample sizes. You also can’t automatically generalize results from untrained listeners to trained listeners, or from ABX testing to long term listening. Testing 20 random college kids listening for 30 seconds on a $500 stereo is just not representative of what someone who’s been critically listening for years might hear when listening for hours on a $20k stereo. I suspect most people have never bothered to actually learn what data their conclusions are based on before they commit to them. Maybe I’m wrong.

I am not saying DACs and amps provably make a difference, although anecdotally, I have heard it myself many times. But I am saying it’s quite possible you do hear a difference and I wouldn’t let anyone online argue you into some other viewpoint. After all, people ARE highly suggestible and it’s quite possible that you won’t hear any difference if you are already primed not to. That is confirmation bias and it works just as well if you truly believe you won’t hear something. That is why I do not form a judgement before listening.

As to whether it’s worth it, that’s obviously something only you can decide. I’d say, if you can convince yourself not to hear a difference, do that! It’s certainly much cheaper and if you can get the same enjoyment from cheaper equipment then that is absolutely the path I would pursue myself. Enjoy!

 

[solderdude]

After all, people ARE highly suggestible and it’s quite possible that you won’t hear any difference if you are already primed not to. That is confirmation bias and it works just as well if you truly believe you won’t hear something. That is why I do not form a judgement before listening.

Indeed people ARE highly suggestible and the whole audio world is actually built on this phenomenon.

So... when you expect to hear a difference or the circumstances are in favor of a device in a 'comparison' you will hear a difference.
You can even hear differences when there aren't any and you only think there are differences.

That's why one really should not pass judgement after:

The way science “proves” something like “using any DAC with X measurements is audibly identical” is with detailed and repeated testing over a few scenarios and with large enough sample sizes.

Just 'hearing it yourself' is not enough for any scientific conclusion.

It is enough for people that just want to enjoy music and you get that from that device. That's what the audio business is all about.