Spotify to launch 'Hi-Fi' CD Quality Tier.

[litemotiv]

If you want some evidence, I did some testing/comparisons a while back: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/loudness-war-has-invaded-the-audiophile-streaming-services.19308

Ok having read that thread i think what you claim in the current thread perhaps feels a bit misleading, maybe it's just the choice of words "terrible FLACs" though.

As @tmtomh mentions in the other thread:

I certainly agree with the OP - but I’m a little puzzled as to why they are surprised at this. “Audiophile” streaming services are audiophile only in that they offer high-res, lossless streaming formats/tiers. They take whatever files the record labels give them, which are almost always remasters - which in turn are often Loudness War masterings.

It has little or nothing to do with the FLACs themselves, it's the underlying material that may not be your preference. The FLAC is just a lossless representation of that material. Points like the first one you mentioned in the current thread:

1. Rip Logs. For all we know right now, the CD's could've been ripped fast with WMP.

Are not really relevant and will very likely not influence the sound in any distinguishable way (unless you can prove that in a double blind test).

I think it would be better to make a clear distinction between any technical issues with the streaming platforms that degrade sound quality, and the source material that they use which they are simply sent by the record labels.

 

[DanielT]

Yes back in Feb that was the plan. Nothing new at that time - Amazon Music HD for example.... Amazon Music HD was an extra charge - until Apple came to the party and Amazon copied the very next day

Nobody was talking about giving lossless for free at that point.

Apple changed everyones plans.

You are looking at things with info you have now - not thinking about how things were back in February... That's why I mentioned people need to remember the timeline. It was a big year of changes in lossless streaming world.

People forget the timeline.

You undeniably have a good point. It is very possible that this is why Spotify is hesitant. It may not be so much a technical issue but an economic one. The management is probably thinking about this with pricing regarding lossless more or less on a daily basis, I can imagine.

I give it to the exact last December. If nothing happens at least I will change supplier. I think. Maybe. Damn I like Spotify. Reminiscent of that girl (who probably all came across) who flirts but does not "let go". So to speak. Temptress Spotify.

 

[m_g_s_g]

And Spotify mentioned HiFi will be a seperate tier - higher price.

Spotify's world turned upside down in June when Apple Music announced Hi-Res lossless for no charge - and Amazon HD copied that the very next day.

Whatever plans Spotify had to make some extra cash with HiFi tier (its in their press release) - they had to tear up those plans. Just like Amazon Music HD had to change plans.

Apple changed the game.

This.

It may not be so much a technical issue but an economic one.

It definitely is, IMHO.

Spotify, at least, will have to:

- Modify and test new apps (Windows, iOS, Android,…). [Increased development costs.]
- Modify Spotify Connect to interact with multiple hardware devices… Now with increased requirements (Sonos, KEF LS50W,…). [Increased development costs.]
- Re-negotiate rights agreements. [Increased costs?]
- Increase reserved storage in the cloud [Increased costs]
- Negotiate with cache/cdn providers (Do they use CloudFlare? Akamai? AWS? I didn’t check). [More storage = increased costs]
- …and probably some other changes (support, training, maintenance…).

HiFi support means increased operating costs.

I will be honest here. As much as I like/use some Apple / Google / Amazon products/services, I don’t like some of their business practices. This was once called dumping.

I really hope Spotify/Qobuz /Tidal/IDAGIO can survive. I’ll do my best to help sticking to specialists.

EDIT: network bandwidth increase is probably not free, as well.

 

[litemotiv]

- Negotiate with cache/cdn providers (Do they use CloudFlare? Akamai? AWS? I didn’t check).

Spotify uses Google for CDN, they had an outage last week which also interrupted Spotify services

 

[Dogen]

People need to remember the timeline that unfolded (lol) this year.

Spotify press release and Billie Eilish video happened in Feb - no word of Apple Music going lossless at that point and Amazon was still only available in 4 countries and charging more for HD.

And Spotify mentioned HiFi will be a seperate tier - higher price.

Spotify's world turned upside down in June when Apple Music announced Hi-Res lossless for no charge - and Amazon HD copied that the very next day.

Whatever plans Spotify had to make some extra cash with HiFi tier (its in their press release) - they had to tear up those plans. Just like Amazon Music HD had to change plans.

Apple changed the game.

Will be interesting to see Spotify's move now, given the timeline of events.

Will Qobuz still be around 2 years from now? They've had to drop prices post Apple game changer too.

I use Apple Music but prefer Tidal's app and recommendations - I just wish Tidal would swap out MQA for the real original masters that Apple and Qobuz and Amazon HD are getting sent - they can keep the "Masters" label in Tidal and swap out the files. Then I will be back with Tidal.

Yeah Apple has put Spotify in a bad situation. Although dominant in the market, they don’t really make money. Their business plan to invest X to deliver lossless and get Y return on a higher tier has been blown up. Their announcement may be looking rash now and they may not be able to carry it out. Maybe they should have said, look, most people can’t tell any difference; our focus is on a better user experience.

Apple can afford to lose a lot of money - Spotify can’t.

 

[litemotiv]

Apple can afford to lose a lot of money - Spotify can’t.

Spotify has a lot of investors, including Tencent (China's largest tech company) which holds close to 10% share. The market cap of Spotify is around US$43b, it's a huge investment pool and much too big to suddenly fall over. They can lose money for years if necessary, as long as their userbase keeps growing they are in a good position.

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes back in Feb that was the plan. Nothing new at that time - Amazon Music HD for example.... Amazon Music HD was an extra charge - until Apple came to the party and Amazon copied the very next day

Nobody was talking about giving lossless for free at that point.

Apple changed everyones plans.

You are looking at things with info you have now - not thinking about how things were back in February... That's why I mentioned people need to remember the timeline. It was a big year of changes in lossless streaming world.

People forget the timeline.

This is all true, but making like an Ostrich has not historically been a good basis for a business strategy.

 

[Taddpole]

- Re-negotiate rights agreements. [Increased costs?]

I wonder if some companies have got less interested in negotiating with spotify after reaching deals with others.

Might easily have raised the price spotify need to reach from where it might have been if they'd been quicker to release.

 

[Dogen]

Spotify has a lot of investors, including Tencent (China's largest tech company) which holds close to 10% share. The market cap of Spotify is around US$43b, it's a huge investment pool and much too big to suddenly fall over. They can lose money for years if necessary, as long as their userbase keeps growing they are in a good position.

Thanks...learned something today.

 

[Music1969]

Apple can afford to lose a lot of money - Spotify can’t.

Certainly Apple's game changer mid year gave Daniel Ek a headache

Not Amazon though - they literally dropped their HD price and copied Apple, the very next day. And Amazon HD finally expanded beyond their original 4 markets that had stuck since HD launch

The Apple effect this year. It was intentional to squeeze Spotify.

I agree with @litemotiv that Spotify won't just fall over suddenly but I can guarantee Apple's move (then Amazons copy) gave Daniel Ek a headache for weeks.

 

[ThatM1key]

Wow, you think streaming services buy CDs and give them to an intern to rip.

No I meant the record companies. Record companies rip there catalog and send them over.

People need to remember the timeline that unfolded (lol) this year.

Spotify press release and Billie Eilish video happened in Feb - no word of Apple Music going lossless at that point and Amazon was still only available in 4 countries and charging more for HD.

And Spotify mentioned HiFi will be a seperate tier - higher price.

Spotify's world turned upside down in June when Apple Music announced Hi-Res lossless for no charge - and Amazon HD copied that the very next day.

Whatever plans Spotify had to make some extra cash with HiFi tier (its in their press release) - they had to tear up those plans. Just like Amazon Music HD had to change plans.

Apple changed the game.

Will be interesting to see Spotify's move now, given the timeline of events.

Will Qobuz still be around 2 years from now? They've had to drop prices post Apple game changer too.

I use Apple Music but prefer Tidal's app and recommendations - I just wish Tidal would swap out MQA for the real original masters that Apple and Qobuz and Amazon HD are getting sent - they can keep the "Masters" label in Tidal and swap out the files. Then I will be back with Tidal.

Just remember the 44.1khz 24bit and above (yes even 192khz 24bit) also suffer from the loudness wars.


I think its a mix of both economic & technical reasons on why Spotify is taking there time. Hard-drive space and networking is cheap but to add more without charging the user, its risky. You would have to hope that the user downloads there music and not stream. For portable users, there gonna download the flacs but home users, there not gonna bother. A good chunk of people can stream 4k video and there not afraid to flac stream. What Spotify can do is pull a "Garth Brooks" move and pay artists to only be on Spotify, that'll make people sign up more, regardless of tier.

 

[Music1969]

What Spotify can do is pull a "Garth Brooks" move and pay artists to only be on Spotify, that'll make people sign up more, regardless of tier.

Unlikely . Streaming services tried Exclusives way back and labels shut it down. It was pissing off end users and labels put an end to it. Specifically Universal (the biggest label on earth). The others followed quickly and we haven't seen major Exclusives since 2016.

The labels have tremendous power.

They also set the stream service prices... if Apple or Amazon want to drop prices labels dont care . Labels aren't making less money. Go look at Universals profits

Universal Reportedly Bans Its Artists From Any More Streaming Exclusives

A couple weeks ago, Chance The Rapper’s manager, Pat Corcoran, talked to Billboard about the Chicago rapper’s decision to release his recent mixtape, Coloring Book, as an Apple Music exclusive. It’s an interesting piece that offers a bunch of insight, but here’s the best quote, via Corcoran...

www.stereogum.com

Apple had Jimmy Iovine in house and said they had no interest in becoming a label. If they would do it that was the time when he was there. He's no longer there.

Loudness wars discussion is completely seperate topic altogether. Nobody mentioned hi res would end loudness wars automatically

 

[ThatM1key]

I would like to backup my claim of Elton John's current CDs and streaming service flac's being terrible in quality. I used the song "Daniel" as an example. The streaming services don't have the OG "Greatest Hits" album but they do have "Diamonds", which is considered his current greatest hits album.

DCC's version of "Elton John's Greatest Hits"

Elton John - Diamonds 3CD (Direct From CD)

Elton John - Diamonds 3 CD (Deezer) (https://www.deezer.com/us/album/51001472)

 

[Sal1950]

I would like to backup my claim of Elton John's current CDs and streaming service flac's being terrible in quality.

Don't blame the streamers, they're only using what was provided by the label.
Here what's on the CD

 

[ThatM1key]

Don't blame the streamers, they're only using what was provided by the label.
Here what's on the CD
View attachment 167438

Most streamers don't know that.

 

[the_hamster 2]

Spotify is a walking corpse anyway struggling to turn a profit for a number of years, it's not like new subscribers will flock to it after they add lossless and the inverse is also true they are unlikely to bleed a lot of subs due to not offering it. So the question with a rather obvious answer is why should they bother?

Well, a lot of Wall Street investors and analysts disagree with your take, and I for one am rounding out the portfolio with some SPOT stock.

 

[Sal1950]

Most streamers don't know that.

WHAT ?

 

[ThatM1key]

WHAT ?

Wdym what? Most Streamers don't know which music comes from which recording company

 

[Music1969]

Wdym what? Most Streamers don't know which music comes from which recording company

Heh?

Spotify, Apple Music, Tidal, Amazon all tell you the label of an album release...

Have done so for years....

 

[ThatM1key]

Heh?

Spotify, Apple Music, Tidal, Amazon all tell you the label of an album release...

Have done so for years....

View attachment 167521

View attachment 167520

Alright Alright I'd admit fault.