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Impact of AC Distortion & Noise on Audio Equipment

Headchef

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@Headchef I have seen when we had a electronics repair shop located in a commercial industrial neighborhood that the AC mains voltage deviated significantly over the day. It was about +/- 15% roughly at worst case. We attributed that to loading of the AC mains at the power poles. That could in linear type power supplies cause a reduced voltage output of the transformer secondary and that in a audio amplifier will cause less power output due to the DC voltage rails being decreased. That would result in a lower volume level at the speaker output. Your conditioner does not appear to be able to compensate for that issue. When dealing with linear power supplies they have filtering/smoothing/power storage capacitors and those are supposed to be able to smooth out any aberrations of the 50 Hz 240 V that you are supplied with. The larger the amplifier then usually the larger the smoothing capacitors. AS @amirm has demonstrated they work very well when supplied with a distorted durty AC waveform from the AC mains. I would like to see a oscilloscope capture showing the 50 Hz 240 V waveform coming from your AC mains.

I actually have an old Russian oscillascope I got from the old Vickers (Spitfire) factory, no idea if or how it works but I’m game to give it a go, That said I’ve a friend that’s an electrical engineer so I’ll see if he’s up for doing it rather than me poking around with potentially lethal voltages.

I noticed that it does refer to a “balanced power output” I wonder if that’s what’s making the difference?
 

Doodski

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I noticed that it does refer to a “balanced power output” I wonder if that’s what’s making the difference?
I suspect they are inferring something that doesn't exist in the purest sense of the term. Balanced means using differential mathematics and signal output. Differential output doesn't appear possible with the Keces bp-600.
 

restorer-john

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I suspect they are inferring something that doesn't exist in the purest sense of the term.

The output of the toroidal transformer will be balanced. It's a 1:1 isolation transformer. The neutral is no longer tied to ground.

The issue with an isolation transformer is possible electrocution if you have faulty equipment plugged in. The RCD/ELCB on your breaker panel may not trip.
 

Doodski

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The output of the toroidal transformer will be balanced. It's a 1:1 isolation transformer. The neutral is no longer tied to ground.

The issue with an isolation transformer is possible electrocution if you have faulty equipment plugged in. The RCD/ELCB on your breaker panel may not trip.
Ahh I just read up on it. Thanks for the pointer.
 

Doodski

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docs.png
 

Headchef

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The output of the toroidal transformer will be balanced. It's a 1:1 isolation transformer. The neutral is no longer tied to ground.

The issue with an isolation transformer is possible electrocution if you have faulty equipment plugged in. The RCD/ELCB on your breaker panel may not trip.

I’m guessing that’s why the unit has a breaker in it? Otherwise yes stuff could get a little burnt
 

Doodski

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Headchef

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Yes, that link was successful. It details and mirrors what @restorer-john advised me that the secondary of the toroidal transformer output is balanced.

I must admit I’m not overly reassured by the absence of any assurances within the manual relating to an increased likelihood of death should there be a fault though! :D

However it might explain where the difference is coming from, I just have to reconcile myself to the potential that my hifi might just be one step closer to being able to kill me! :D
 

Doodski

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I think if you are up to a experiment then picture record some sine waves. Then we can see if there is a gain difference or otherwise. Perhaps at the following frequencies.
- 400 Hz
- 1 Khz
- 3 Khz
- 5 Khz
- 7 Khz
- 10 Khz
- 15 Khz

Or something like that. Nothing has to be exact just have a spread of frequencies that are identical for when the Keces bp-600 is used and not used. The sine wave level can be supplied by a notebook PC and that way it can be battery powered and not reliant on AC mains power. A musical waveform or three for the geeks here would be handy too. I don't have analyzing software(s) although they are readily available and many peeps here are accustomed to using them.
 

Doodski

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I must admit I’m not overly reassured by the absence of any assurances within the manual relating to an increased likelihood of death should there be a fault though! :D

However it might explain where the difference is coming from, I just have to reconcile myself to the potential that my hifi might just be one step closer to being able to kill me! :D
Yes, 240V AC will if it doesn't kill you smart like a lot if you take a electrocution. It hurts.
 

rdenney

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An isolation transformer does several things, of which eliminating ground loops is just one. It does that by isolating the secondary neutral from the safety (earth) ground as John stated.

But it also attenuates noise and transients. It uses inductive coupling and a faraday shield between the primary and secondary, which reduces capacitive coupling and attenuates higher frequencies (which, of course, reduces transients, which are just single impulses with a slew rate similar to high frequencies).

It also isolates the secondary from common-mode currents on the primary side.

And most of them also provide surge protection. My Tripplite has MOVs for that purpose.

To get the full benefit of the ground loop isolation, one must use two-prong plugs on the secondary side, which requires that the devices plugged into it be double-insulated. Audio stuff generally isn't, and plugging its three-prong plug into the outlet re-establishes the earth ground on the secondary side.

I bought it thinking the 60-cycle hum in my phono chain might be a ground loop (all the audio connections are single-ended) and it had no effect. The Thorens wall wart does not have an earth-ground pin, so it took advantage of the neutral-ground isolation. So, I don't think the issue was a ground loop, or common-mode currents, or high-frequency noise. But it only cost a little more than a decent surge suppressor and it can't hurt.

Of course, there are lots of other possibilities. In the end, I just implemented a 60-Hz notch in my Yamaha PEQ and poof!--the problem went away.

The Tripplite unit is rated for <1% THD output.

As said already, it still depends on the storage capacitors in the equipment power supplies to filter ripple from rectification and lower-frequency noise, which all happens downstream of the isolator in any case. Those capacitors are needed even with a regulator, just to help control heat in the regulator device if nothing else.

Rick "whose preamp has a LOT lower noise floor than 1%" Denney
 

Headchef

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I think if you are up to a experiment then picture record some sine waves. Then we can see if there is a gain difference or otherwise. Perhaps at the following frequencies.
- 400 Hz
- 1 Khz
- 3 Khz
- 5 Khz
- 7 Khz
- 10 Khz
- 15 Khz

Or something like that. Nothing has to be exact just have a spread of frequencies that are identical for when the Keces bp-600 is used and not used. The sine wave level can be supplied by a notebook PC and that way it can be battery powered and not reliant on AC mains power. A musical waveform or three for the geeks here would be handy too. I don't have analyzing software(s) although they are readily available and many peeps here are accustomed to using them.

i’m sure we could do that, I’ll see if my buddy the engineer can pop around and hook it up, chits knows if anyone can find a way of testing if balanced power will trip the fuse box or blow someone up it’d be me! :D
 

Doodski

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... and picture record the AC mains and AC output of the Keces bp-600.
 

PeteL

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The people's expectations -- and I know many -- is that by deploying such boxes, perfectly performing system with zero pops, clicks, or hum, all of a sudden are elevated to another sonic level. These are the same people who change their outlets and report improvements. Or even screws used in such power sockets! Scenarios you have been making up is not remotely common characteristics of why people buy such gear.
These "people" are not your readership tough, and they are not the people commenting on this thread, they don't watch your videos. I believe you have clearly demonstrated that these conditioner won't do anything good for these people. But that is not what I read trough the numerous pages in this thread is about, I see genuinely interested people in the science behind that. And what it can do for them, not these people. I see technically savvy people that went trough pulling scopes, taking measures, doing blind test, analyzing causes. You are talking to us, that follow your measurments and reviews with an interest in understanding and learning, not these people. Some disagree on the way the conclusion is worded and some find the scope of the experiment insufficient to prove this conclusion, some bend the other way. That is the discussion that is interesting to have, if it can actually solve real problems, or not. So i believe this argument that some people hear stuff that don't exist is a bit redundant. Everybody already know that here.
 

Headchef

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a quick google seems to suggest that I could hook the scope up to the tape output on the amp, that could be quite interesting as I’d be seeing the signal once it’s passed through the amp which is ultimately what I’m looking for in determining what the difference we can hear is
 

Doodski

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a quick google seems to suggest that I could hook the scope up to the tape output on the amp, that could be quite interesting as I’d be seeing the signal once it’s passed through the amp which is ultimately what I’m looking for in determining what the difference we can hear is
That won't show a gain difference from the amplifier section of the amp. We want to see if there is a voltage decrease or increase difference between using the Keces bp-600 and not using it as well as when your kitchen equipment is engaged or disengaged. Yes, the tape output will show the waveform albeit at a much reduced voltage level and the tape output will not tax or work the Keces bp-600 at any extent. You want to draw power from the Keces bp-600 and that will require using the speaker outputs with the speakers connected to the amp and the volume turned up.
 

rdenney

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Make sure your scope ground isn't earthed on the primary side of your isolator, or you'll re-establish the neutral-ground connection and maybe even create a new ground loop.

Rick "anticipating that the speaker ground is not earthed outside the isolation zone during the test" Denney
 

Headchef

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Make sure your scope ground isn't earthed on the primary side of your isolator, or you'll re-establish the neutral-ground connection and maybe even create a new ground loop.

Rick "anticipating that the speaker ground is not earthed outside the isolation zone during the test" Denney

that sounds potential painful/expensive/lethal

I think I’ll get my friend to do this, I‘m good at cooking food, I’d prefer not to cook me, the wife or the hifi :D
 
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