DAC burn-in/break-in? My Gustard X16 measurements

[cjm2077]

My assertion:
What I heard initially (when x16 was brand new) was unlikely to be expectation bias nor voltage matched issue between E30 and x16.

Like I mentioned multiple times, although my meter is not correct, it was consistent.

I am going to repeat this.

I have measured Topping E30 in 3 difference locations of my house, multiple audio setups, multiple different times and multiple dates.

Once I voltage matched it with L30 to certain voltage output at 1Khz, all subsequent 2khz, 3Khz, ... to 10 Hz voltage captured are within 0.001V of previous measurements.

Same result for KTB. No more than 0.001V difference.

So, why Gustard x16 showing as much as 0.004V difference in just 3 weeks used from brand new?

Lots of people here talked about controlled environment. But no one here can explain why my measurements for E30 is so stable.

I admire the curiosity, but we're just criticizing the method. I design electronics for a living (not commercials ones, but including DACS and ADCs) and a fair bit of my job is testing and debugging. If a junior engineer came to me with these test results the first thing I would do would be to repeat these tests with appropriately rated equipment. I know this is hard for you to do because the appropriate equipment is extremely expensive, and things are only brand new once. But without a known good reference (which would be the higher accuracy equipment) you can't verify the accuracy or precision of your tests. Repeated precision measurements under one known condition does not project to the same repeated precision under all conditions, and that is where your testing falls apart.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You've lost me there . I didnt ask about your meter, your house or anything else. Im interested in what your endeavours may have yielded in terms of your understanding about comparing DACs between units and over time.

You seem to perceive things, measure, see differences in measurements and then run with the measurement difference being the reason for the differences your ears/ brain perceive. Is that a fair understanding of where you are at? If not, I would genuinely like to know what your efforts have yielded.

You perceive the X16 sounded differently now to when new, you see changes in the measured voltages then and now- QED?

Yes, I perceived differences between new x16 vs 3 weeks old x16. What I am trying to figure out is how to prove that beyond the typical "brain" issue. I am curious if voltages differences could partially explain it, not fully explain it. It could just a clue that may be other components on x16 have not yet reaching full potential.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I admire the curiosity, but we're just criticizing the method. I design electronics for a living (not commercials ones, but including DACS and ADCs) and a fair bit of my job is testing and debugging. If a junior engineer came to me with these test results the first thing I would do would be to repeat these tests with appropriately rated equipment. I know this is hard for you to do because the appropriate equipment is extremely expensive, and things are only brand new once. But without a known good reference (which would be the higher accuracy equipment) you can't verify the accuracy or precision of your tests. Repeated precision measurements under one known condition does not project to the same repeated precision under all conditions, and that is where your testing falls apart.

Yup. I agree. I just don't see how many other scenarios I haven't covered for E30 that is so different than scenarios for X16.

Would you please let me know your own observations?

Have you measured voltages output for all freq range of brand new DAC, then measured voltages output of all freq range of the same DAC a few weeks later?

Any differences?

 

[kevin1969]

Of cause I don't have the correct setup for optimum correctness. I already stated standard deviation is 0.001V. Anyone here with proper equipments want to buy x16 and do same experiments? That would be awesome.

I have one and I have no plans to hook up a $40 multimeter to my $500 piece of equipment. If you don't like it send it back and buy something else.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I have one and I have no plans to hook up a $40 multimeter to my $500 piece of equipment. If you don't like it send it back and buy something else.

You already used it. So even if you could measure it, there is no point now.

I did thought about returning it, but I decided to hold on a bit longer to see if it would improve. It did improve.

 

[cjm2077]

Yup. I agree. I just don't see how many other scenarios I haven't covered for E30 that is so different than scenarios for X16.

Would you please let me know your own observations?

Have you measured voltages output for all freq range of brand new DAC, then measured voltages output of all freq range of the same DAC a few weeks later?

Any differences?

I haven't tested audio range component dacs, but no DAC or ADC I have ever designed or tested has shown any break-in characteristics, whether over days, or months. Thermal and long term drift of components exists, and have to be factored into accuracy targets, but someone would have to screw up pretty severely for it to happen in the scale you would need to hear it over the time period you are talking about, and it would not suddenly stop drifting at two weeks. That is just not how that works.

 

[SIY]

Let me see if I understood you right. You have NOT measured voltages output for all freq range of brand new DAC, then measured voltages output of all freq range of the same DAC a few weeks later?

Indeed, you have not understood me correctly. Nor what that measurement means and how it’s properly done. Nor the concepts of R&R, error budgets, and significance.

You’ve also completely discarded the likely answer because it’s somehow uncomfortable for you. Nonetheless, it’s the likely answer, one that does not involve unknown forces and miracles.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Indeed, you have not understood me correctly. Nor what that measurement means and how it’s properly done. Nor the concepts of R&R, error budgets, and significance.

You’ve also completely discarded the likely answer because it’s somehow uncomfortable for you. Nonetheless, it’s the likely answer, one that does not involve unknown forces and miracles.

You are still dancing around my question.

Simple question.

Have you ever done the measurements I have done? Brand new DAC, the whole platform, measure voltage output for all freq, then measure again 3 weeks later.

Yes or no?

 

[Pdxwayne]

I haven't tested audio range component dacs, but no DAC or ADC I have ever designed or tested has shown any break-in characteristics, whether over days, or months. Thermal and long term drift of components exists, and have to be factored into accuracy targets, but someone would have to screw up pretty severely for it to happen in the scale you would need to hear it over the time period you are talking about, and it would not suddenly stop drifting at two weeks. That is just not how that works.

What would be the components inside a commercial, brand new DAC, that would drifts? Thanks!

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes, I perceived differences between new x16 vs 3 weeks old x16. What I am trying to figure out is how to prove that beyond the typical "brain" issue. I am curious if voltages differences could partially explain it, not fully explain it. It could just a clue that may be other components on x16 have not yet reaching full potential.

I perceive differences in playback almost every time I listen to the same track. When Im using different headphones I would happily accept there may hsve been an actual difference in the sound waves hitting my ears drums. Or maybe there wasn't. But when all other things are equal but the age of the DAC (or amp indeed) I'd mostly be thinking its my mood /attention /brain more than some shift in the audible behaviour of electronics.

 

[threni]

I don't know how many times I need to repeat.....How many "Again" should I repeat what I said in initial post. It is NOT accurate, but consistent. Hope you get the idea.

I don't understand where you're coming from with the "It is NOT accurate, but consistent" thing. If if's not accurate, surely all bets are off. Its only consistency is its inaccuracy. If one could take meaningful measurements with something which was inaccurate, why would people spend thousands on proper tools, and yet more getting them checked, fixed and calibrated frequently? You're saying it's "consistent within 0.001V". It's not even rated as being that accurate in the first place! And that's if the marketing on a cheap, discontinued piece of kit can be trusted.

If you were using something this inaccurate to measure medicine in a situation where slightly too little or too much could kill you, would you be happy with "well, it's not an accurate method of measuring weight, but I know how inaccurate it is so I can compensate"? Wouldn't you sue a pharmacist if they gave you the wrong dose and relied on that "logic" if you suffered harm? Different stakes are at play here but...well, the same answer though, right?

How many more times? Well, on a site dedicated to measurements, you don't bring a plastic knife to a gunfight.

 

[Jimbob54]

I don't understand where you're coming from with the "It is NOT accurate, but consistent" thing. If if's not accurate, surely all bets are off. Its only consistency is its inaccuracy. If one could take meaningful measurements with something which was inaccurate, why would people spend thousands on proper tools, and yet more getting them checked, fixed and calibrated frequently? You're saying it's "consistent within 0.001V". It's not even rated as being that accurate in the first place! And that's if the marketing on a cheap, discontinued piece of kit can be trusted.

If you were using something this inaccurate to measure medicine in a situation where slightly too little or too much could kill you, would you be happy with "well, it's not an accurate method of measuring weight, but I know how inaccurate it is so I can compensate"? Wouldn't you sue a pharmacist if they gave you the wrong dose and relied on that "logic" if you suffered harm? Different stakes are at play here but...well, the same answer though, right?

How many more times? Well, on a site dedicated to measurements, you don't bring a plastic knife to a gunfight.

A spork

 

[Pdxwayne]

I don't understand where you're coming from with the "It is NOT accurate, but consistent" thing. If if's not accurate, surely all bets are off. Its only consistency is its inaccuracy. If one could take meaningful measurements with something which was inaccurate, why would people spend thousands on proper tools, and yet more getting them checked, fixed and calibrated frequently? You're saying it's "consistent within 0.001V". It's not even rated as being that accurate in the first place! And that's if the marketing on a cheap, discontinued piece of kit can be trusted.

If you were using something this inaccurate to measure medicine in a situation where slightly too little or too much could kill you, would you be happy with "well, it's not an accurate method of measuring weight, but I know how inaccurate it is so I can compensate"? Wouldn't you sue a pharmacist if they gave you the wrong dose and relied on that "logic" if you suffered harm? Different stakes are at play here but...well, the same answer though, right?

How many more times? Well, on a site dedicated to measurements, you don't bring a plastic knife to a gunfight.

Other than spending thousands and thousands to get correct measurements equipments, what else can I do to show potential clue?

How about you?

How do you convince people here what you heard is not just the "brain"?

 

[Pdxwayne]

I perceive differences in playback almost every time I listen to the same track. When Im using different headphones I would happily accept there may hsve been an actual difference in the sound waves hitting my ears drums. Or maybe there wasn't. But when all other things are equal but the age of the DAC (or amp indeed) I'd mostly be thinking its my mood /attention /brain more than some shift in the audible behaviour of electronics.

So, my mood suddenly changed when I switched DAC.... Mood didn't improve for 2 weeks....

I guess that is one explanation.

Other than the typical "brain" explanation, what else one could do to show potential real clue, without spending thousands for measurements equipment in well controlled lab?

 

[Purité Audio]

What I have done here in the past, is to use two identical dacs one brand new one which has been well used and compared them unsighted.
Keith

 

[Jimbob54]

So, my mood suddenly changed when I switched DAC.... Mood didn't improve for 2 weeks....

I guess that is one explanation.

Other than the typical "brain" explanation, what else one could do to show potential real clue, without spending thousands for measurements equipment in well controlled lab?

I'd probably look at sites like this and anywhere else that might use better equipment.

Now, on the other hand, I don't wholesale discount things. See the smsl m500 thermal issue thread. But I'm not sure even then the differences over time /teml would have been audible with music.

 

[threni]

Other than spending thousands and thousands to get correct measurements equipments, what else can I do to show potential clue?

How about you?

How do you convince people here what you heard is not just the "brain"?

I think it is the brain, though. I didn't hear my E30 change since I bought it, and I wouldn't expect anyone here to believe me if I said it did, and were I to get into measurements I'd not bother unless I had access to an accurate method of taking those measurements.

I mean, forget this particular example; just in the abstract, how would anyone go about convincing anyone else of something they personally have experienced it it's internal to them, and there's no objective measurements? It's not possible.

 

[SIY]

Other than spending thousands and thousands to get correct measurements equipments, what else can I do to show potential clue?

How about you?

How do you convince people here what you heard is not just the "brain"?

Double blind level matched listening, i.e., basic controls. Or significant measured differences, above audible thresholds.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I think it is the brain, though. I didn't hear my E30 change since I bought it, and I wouldn't expect anyone here to believe me if I said it did, and were I to get into measurements I'd not bother unless I had access to an accurate method of taking those measurements.

I mean, forget this particular example; just in the abstract, how would anyone go about convincing anyone else of something they personally have experienced it it's internal to them, and there's no objective measurements? It's not possible.

In my case, I didn't measure E30 brand new. First measurements was 2 weeks old. All subsequent measurements show little change of 0.001V. So I don't expect you to hear a different. : )

But the story here is Gustard X16. I didn't like it initially. Now it is OK. I can enjoy the same song I enjoyed with E30 with my stereo setup.

 

[SIY]

You are still dancing around my question.

Simple question.

Have you ever done the measurements I have done? Brand new DAC, the whole platform, measure voltage output for all freq, then measure again 3 weeks later.

Yes or no?

I did correct measurements using appropriate equipment. So not like yours.