Revel Salon 2

[richard12511]

Revel Salon2,


D&D8C


Keith

Yeah, those are the graphs I was referring to. Salon2 looks quite a bit better than the 8c(more so than I remembered) up until ~10k, while the 8c looks better after that. I view sub 10k as more important, hence why I said the Salon2 looks better off axis.

Also, when I say "better" I'm referring to average listener preference. Personally, I've started preferring a more narrow dispersion over the past few years, so I might actually prefer the off axis response of the 8c.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Revel Salon2,


D&D8C


Keith

The Salon would appear to be better for the people who prefer wide dispersion.

Do you have the Kii Three graphs for comparison?

 

[MZKM]

The Salon would appear to be better for the people who prefer wide dispersion.

Do you have the Kii Three graphs for comparison?

Just search Stereophile:

The scale is offset though.

 

[richard12511]

The Salon would appear to be better for the people who prefer wide dispersion.

Which, according to Toole, is the majority of people, and why he expected the Salon2 to beat the M2(as it did) in that blind test, despite the Salon2 being less flat on axis and LW. If I'm not mistaken, he actually lists "wider dispersion" as the second most important thing(after flat on axis) for predicting listener preference. The JBL M2 seems comparably flat to the 8c, so I'd be curious how similarly an 8c vs Salon2 blind shootout would go with a large sample size of folks. One advantage the 8c has over the M2(which I'm convinced makes a considerable difference, based on hearing the 8c) is the back wave cancellation to eliminate the SBIR.

Does anyone know of similar off axis measurements for the JBL M2(I couldn't find a stereophile measurement). I'd be interested to see how the M2's dispersion width compares to the 8c.

The wider vs narrower dispersion debate, and how it correlates to listener preference is really fascinating to me, and I do wonder how much listening in mono affects the outcome. I know it's quite controversial to question the mono vs stereo thing, but I personally have yet to see sufficient evidence to convince myself that preference between the two formats is always the same, with zero exceptions to date(as Toole has said). I've also personally experienced 1 exception in the 4 or 5 blind tests that I've done(which makes it harder for me to believe that Harman has had 0 over the course of thousands of tests). Could be my exception is based on my inferior test methods(mainly way slower switch times), but who knows. I'm likely misguided, but at least this is my opinion based on the public facing data I've seen from Harman. It could be that Revel/Harman has private data that makes the case more rock solid.

If someone does do a Salon2 vs 8C blind shootout, I personally would want to see both a mono and stereo test, even if just to help convince my own brain that they really are the same.

 

[richard12511]

Just search Stereophile:

The scale is offset though.

Interesting. Kii Three looks better than the 8C, but not as good as the Salon2. At some point, whenever I finally take a vacation to the UK, @Purité Audio's store will be one of my stops for sure. Would be awesome to hear the 8C, LS1be, Kii Three, Beolab90 all in one place to compare. Can't afford the Beolab90 or LS1be, but I imagine I'll end up buying one of those other 2 at some point. Would actually love to purchase from Keith, but VAT might get in the way of that . I think it's important to support dealers, especially those like Purite that are so focused on objective performance, and little to no snake oil nonsense.

 

[Purité Audio]

VAT exempt if you are outside of the UK.
Keith

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

I plan at some point to get Salon2's for my theater and Kii Three's for my desktop. I will be able to reach a definite conclusion, at least for myself.

I also have my Morrison 19.1's. I don't have spinorama measurements or anything, but these speakers when properly DSP'd can measure +/-2dB from 34Hz to 20kHz, and by virtue of their design have perfect 360° horizontal dispersion and perfect 180° vertical dispersion. They perfectly produce a holographic soundstage with pinpoint precision and reveal an impressive amount of detail in my untreated room. If flat and wide is what truly makes speakers good, then I'll know, since these are pretty darn flat and pretty darn wide.

 

[richard12511]

I plan at some point to get Salon2's for my theater and Kii Three's for my desktop. I will be able to reach a definite conclusion, at least for myself.

I also have my Morrison 19.1's. I don't have spinorama measurements or anything, but these speakers when properly DSP'd can measure +/-2dB from 34Hz to 20kHz, and by virtue of their design have perfect 360° horizontal dispersion and perfect 180° vertical dispersion. They perfectly produce a holographic soundstage with pinpoint precision and reveal an impressive amount of detail in my untreated room. If flat and wide is what truly makes speakers good, then I'll know, since these are pretty darn flat and pretty darn wide.

Would be superior interested to read a blind shootout of those three. I'm particularly interested in how omnidirectional speakers would fare in mono vs stereo.

 

[vavan]

If someone does do a Salon2 vs 8C blind shootout

I think we need @echopraxia to step in

 

[echopraxia]

I think we need @echopraxia to step in

Well I don’t have an 8C (yet?) so I don’t know if I can help much, but I’ve written pretty extensively on my Genelec 8351B vs Revel Salon2 impressions. I suspect the biggest differences to look out for will be related to directivity.

 

[vavan]

Well I don’t have an 8C (yet?)

Hope you'll figure out a way to deal with it sooner than later

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Well, I now have a pair of Salon2's and a pair of Dutch&Dutch 8C's. I haven't done a blind comparison between the two, but I don't have a strong bias in favor of one or the other.
The Salon2 wins in the bass department and with respect to resolution in general. The cleanliness of the bass from these speakers is really something to behold. It reminds me of the bass you get from LCD-4 or AB-1266 headphones, revealing textures in the bass region you almost never hear except in live performances.

The Dutch&Dutch 8C win in terms of tonality and imaging. The cardioid allows these speakers to disappear in a way that I didn't know was even possible for speakers. They present such a clear window into the music that it can screw with your brain. Listening to music on them is a revelatory experience. They aren't as large and impressive as the Salon2's, but the way they present music would allow for me to easily say they are the superior loudspeaker in many respects.

 

[Purité Audio]

Have you set them up together in the same space, when I ( and the potential customer)compared the 8Cs to the Salons the 8Cs were better in every respect, placed close to the wall room mode peaks adjusted with their internal EQ, bass had greater extension and obviously no overhang, even with external EQ the Salons didn’t have the same authority, and the 8Cs were less congested and less coloured than the Revels.
Which is exactly what I would expect from their respective specs and measurements.
Keith

 

[Sal1950]

Have you set them up together in the same space, when I ( and the potential customer)compared the 8Cs to the Salons the 8Cs were better in every respect, placed close to the wall room mode peaks adjusted with their internal EQ, bass had greater extension and obviously no overhang, even with external EQ the Salons didn’t have the same authority, and the 8Cs were less congested and less coloured than the Revels.
Which is exactly what I would expect from their respective specs and measurements.
Keith

FYI for all, The above statement is a highly biased opinion piece due to Keith being a dealer for the 8C. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[tecnogadget]

Im a little bit confused by this subjective comparison of Salon 2 vs 8C. In “theory” 8C should win in the bass department with respect to resolution and cleanliness because of its inherent and special cardioid dispersion pattern design in the bass department, in fact it is the hole purpose of the 8C. This should in “theory” be valid at least comparing the two speakers in the same location close to boundaries (back wall) and no EQ, stock sound.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

This should in “theory” be valid at least comparing the two speakers in the same location close to boundaries (back wall) and no EQ, stock sound.

Agreed but is that really a good comparison? The 8C requires proximity to the rear front wall (and has compensation for side-wall distance) for optimal performance. The Revel does not and, therefore, requires different placement with respect to boundaries to perform optimally.

Same room comparison is valid but, imho, same placement in the room is not.

 

[blueone]

Have you set them up together in the same space, when I ( and the potential customer)compared the 8Cs to the Salons the 8Cs were better in every respect, placed close to the wall room mode peaks adjusted with their internal EQ, bass had greater extension and obviously no overhang, even with external EQ the Salons didn’t have the same authority, and the 8Cs were less congested and less coloured than the Revels.
Which is exactly what I would expect from their respective specs and measurements.
Keith

The Salon2s are not perfect, of course, but implying they are "congested", whatever that term really means, and colored, implies rather overt frequency response deviations and/or distortion for these problems to be so easily audible. Your use of EQ to adjust the 8C with an unspecified reference (Flatness? A bass bump? Spectral tilt?) makes any comparison suspect. I experienced this sort of manipulation not so very long ago in a dealer's demonstration of Martin Logan Renaissance 15As. Unfortunately for him we were using my own recordings, and the EQ he chose was easily revealed. Without a reference EQ can make some sources sound artificially "better", with the results varying widely depending on the source material used.

I am anxious for the opportunity to hear the 8Cs some day, because I think they might be exactly what I'm looking for in our HT system. I'm hoping to find someone with a home installation I can listen to, once the pandemic subsides.

 

[tecnogadget]

Agreed but is that really a good comparison? The 8C requires proximity to the rear front wall (and has compensation for side-wall distance) for optimal performance. The Revel does not and, therefore, requires different placement with respect to boundaries to perform optimally.

Same room comparison is valid but, imho, same placement in the room is not.

Thanks for the correction. Your explanation makes sense.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

The Salon2's are in my theater, pulled out about 5' from the front wall to provide 60° of separation from the main seating position. The 8C's are placed up against the wall with my computer desk. Each is optimized as well as it can be for its respective setup, so it is difficult to compare them directly in the same setup. Even so, they seem sound different enough to me that it's easy to make sighted comparisons.

The bass on the Salon2 is better to my ears. This is apparent when listening to the same classical recordings and noting how much more detailed and textured bass drums and timpanis sound. This doesn't come as a surprise to me. The Salon2 is a bigger speaker with a greater number of more expensive, higher quality woofers. I'm sure if I paired the 8C's with some good subs I could get something comparable.

I have no problem saying the 8C's are better in many respects though. They absolutely do give you an uncongested, uncolored window into the source. If that's the end goal of a stereo system, they probably do it best.

 

[Thomas savage]

All speaker system designs are some sort of compromise the engineering is focused to a particular environment and usage scenario.

I'm sure driven properly and in optimum environment the salon 2 would blast the 8c away in bass and volume .

The 8c is genius, for most people and in most domestic listening scenarios it's hard to beat . You can have a pair and enjoy great sound while also not being a salve to them domestically.

If I were to change my speakers I'd presently go with the 8c , put them against the wall and get on with living a normal life.