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Schiit Modi 3+ Review (Stereo DAC)
- Thread starter amirm
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It's just a shame that nobody seems to be able to state "it's n db" and point at either some medical proof of what humans can detect theoretically, or sensibly performed a/b tests using a large number of people and a large number of DACs showing the threshold of guesswork. Then when reading Amir's reviews either the DAC is good enough, or it's not.
The Asgard 3 is an amp, not a DAC. I'm aware of two optional DAC modules for it. I think Amir's only reviewed the AK4490 one I have, not the multibit. (My worthless subjective untested opinion is that it's audibly the same as the better measuring Topping E30 I'm now using with the Asgard 3. I'd be interested to know if the difference is audible).
well, individual variations are huge... I remember reading some submarine sonar operators can hear up to 25khz for sonar, and personally at 35yo most of my friends are at around 16k max, and personally I can still go up to 20khz... while some ppl can hear ppl wisper far away... so I do think that it's not that straight forward
They didn't break it this time at least. Looks iterative improvement. They need a true redesign to reach 115-120db SINAD. Still kudos to them!
Yes, I'd be happy with "any human, any frequency" as that would include me, which is really the only relevant person when it comes to my hifi listening. I imagine it would involve a number of tests, possibly including the various coloured noises (white, pink etc). I can hear 21kHz; I want some sort of test to confirm this as apparently it shouldn't be possible.
Helicopter
Major Contributor
Thanks Amir.
This seems like another great product and it will get my recommendation for US buyers in the price range. To me, the lack of a screen that can burn in or fail is a bonus, especially on this unit, where you are unlikely to use the controls once it is plugged in.
I might consider it worthy of golfing panther as an itteration of Modi3, but I understand the overall ranking is cleaner if it is treated as a new product, so I may have ranked it as you did to avoid another distinction over which we might squabble.
This seems like another great product and it will get my recommendation for US buyers in the price range. To me, the lack of a screen that can burn in or fail is a bonus, especially on this unit, where you are unlikely to use the controls once it is plugged in.
I might consider it worthy of golfing panther as an itteration of Modi3, but I understand the overall ranking is cleaner if it is treated as a new product, so I may have ranked it as you did to avoid another distinction over which we might squabble.
I think the current panther is fair. There are a number of issues here that should be better these days, even at the price point (prominent 5th harmonic, below average S/PDIF jitter performance, middling multitone).
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You can see the input/output combinations tested. USB on the input side, RCA on the output, so there is a D/A in the tested device: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-asgard-3-headphone-amp-dac.14393/
You can see it's classified as a headphone amp in the database.
Regarding audibility, what kind of "audible" are you talking about? It's sort of a moot point. With gear this clean you won't hear improvements with every new unit bought. The higher these SINAD or SNR numbers, the less chance there is that a gear-related audible problem will show itself, even if someone messes up gain staging or another aspect of config that would otherwise bring it into focus.
Veri
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Also note that all "probably not audible" things add up. 110dB SINAD DAC and 110dB SINAD amp is most certainly not 110dB end result. Same with the other metrics. Should you obsess over every single thing though, of course not. 96dB transparency for 16-bit material is probably good enough for most transducers 
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Sure, yeah, I know all that. The database, review etc - all fine. I was just talking about the table you quoted in your post, which is a list of DACs.
Regarding "Regarding audibility" I simply mean - can one hear any difference at all between two given DACs (in my case the E30 and the AK 4490 DAC module for the Asgard 3).
Also note that all "probably not audible" things add up. 110dB SINAD DAC and 110dB SINAD amp is most certainly not 110dB end result. Same with the other metrics.
Should you obsess over every single thing though, of course not. 96dB transparency for 16-bit material is probably good enough for most transducers
Well my two DACs are either side of 96db. So it sounds like potentially there is an audible difference. Not to obsess, but given that we have a choice of cheap, similarly performing DACs, why would one get one which is potentially very slightly inaudibly inferior? Given how Amir disses the AK4490 module you'd definitely imply that there's a meaningful/audible difference, but this isn't stated. I'm just saying let's just get off the fence; it doesn't matter what the graphs look like if they're showing noise no human can hear - or does it? That's really what I'm trying to understand here.
SmackDaddies
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I like Amir tests - I think if your going to purchase something going for the best you can afford is a good idea, and sets the bar for manufacturers to up their game (as clearly Schiit has done)
Having said all of that, It is also clear that most DACs perform to levels that are inaudible to differentiate
Music compression in the recording industry is a far larger negative impact on what we actually hear.
Have you read this thread yet?
A good one...
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/
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.... or not.
I did see that, thanks, and it was pretty interesting. But the problem with that article is:
"NwAvGuy provides some guidelines for good amplifier design. He is "an electrical engineer by education (BSEE) and career", not a psychoacoustician, and he does not cite his sources, so his limits will be treated as lenient.
NwAvGuy says that "noise needs to be -85dB below the signal to be inaudible which works out to only 0.005% THD+N. But music masks distortion so 0.01% (-80dB) is considered acceptable." Since I make no assumptions about the listener or listening material, I'll disregard the -80 dB threshold and go with -85 dB."
I'm not interested in what some anonymous guy typed on the internet - I'm interested in knowing the answer.
AndrewDavis
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Agreed! I have a single DSD sample file I use if I ever want to see the display on my DAC say “DSD.”
Does anyone have a significant DSD collection? Without any streaming options that’s a tough one!
I'd say @andreasmaaan (hope you don't mind me tagging you in) might be able to point you to the best current research on that.
Also, it's not just about that article in the link, it's about the discussion in the thread...
BobPM
Active Member
USB / SPDIF - If Schiit can clean up the USB signal using their proprietary design, shouldn't they be able to do the same for the SPDIF?
I ask because I am using a Bluesound Node into a Modius, and the Node does not have USB out. I have looked for a reasonably priced media server with USB that has software as versatile as Bluesound, and even without the issue of having to pay the Roon tax, neither Roon nor most of the linux flavors are versatile enough to allow access to all or even most of the commercial content providers. Roon only allows you to use two music services. I primarily use Tidal, Deezer, Radio Paradise, Tunein and a QNAP NAS, but can also add Spotify, Qobuz and Amazon Music--all controlled with a single phone app.
As to the subjectivist argument above, I say embrace the distortion and dial it in as you like. The Schiit DAC I have is an excellent transparent DAC that goes into a Freya +, and from there into an NC400 based amp. When I want to hear that tube sound, I just put the pre into tube mode. If not, I get very good transparent results in passive or SET mode.
I ask because I am using a Bluesound Node into a Modius, and the Node does not have USB out. I have looked for a reasonably priced media server with USB that has software as versatile as Bluesound, and even without the issue of having to pay the Roon tax, neither Roon nor most of the linux flavors are versatile enough to allow access to all or even most of the commercial content providers. Roon only allows you to use two music services. I primarily use Tidal, Deezer, Radio Paradise, Tunein and a QNAP NAS, but can also add Spotify, Qobuz and Amazon Music--all controlled with a single phone app.
As to the subjectivist argument above, I say embrace the distortion and dial it in as you like. The Schiit DAC I have is an excellent transparent DAC that goes into a Freya +, and from there into an NC400 based amp. When I want to hear that tube sound, I just put the pre into tube mode. If not, I get very good transparent results in passive or SET mode.
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