Cheapest Full Range 20hz - 20khz Speakers?

[jcebedo11]

I think the idea was to do it without a subwoofer.

Does DIY count? because it can be done doing DIY.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Does DIY count? because it can be done doing DIY.

I don't know, I don't make the rules Not sure if we ever agreed on the definition of cheap either.

We're considering to build active floor standers that would go 20-20,000hz, but they would probably end up costing north of $10k USD.

 

[carewser]

They don't exist until you give us the model name

They're the Audioengine A5+ active speakers and matching Audioengine S8 subwoofer but I doubt the OP would be interested because it involves a sub and the sub "only" goes down to 27hz

 

[Eetu]

They're the Audioengine A5+ active speakers and matching Audioengine S8 subwoofer but I doubt the OP would be interested because it involves a sub and the sub "only" goes down to 27hz

Yeah no problem, a bit confusing since there's another active thread running for full range systems.

 

[tuga]

Regardless of the goal, it still seems like the most accurate monitors would give you the best chance of meeting that goal. No?

I agree. How do you define accuracy, is it a pretty Spin?

 

[tuga]

Would you kindly site some evidence to explain these statements? I would like to see the testing done on both of these speakers which specifically proves the manifest sufficiency which the M2 lacks. That would be helpful for my understanding, thanks.

Sure, just send me both models and a Klippel or enough money to rent an anechoic chamber.

Meanwhile see here for presumed advantages of sealed cabinet and 4-way topologies.

 

[sigbergaudio]

The most realistic path to full range speakers is probably going active, since very few drivers naturally extend this deep. While active speakers with DSP would immediately make it more viable.

 

[Shazb0t]

Sure, just send me both models and a Klippel or enough money to rent an anechoic chamber.

Meanwhile see here for presumed advantages of sealed cabinet and 4-way topologies.

Okay, so then it's safe to say that you're stating things as unassailable facts with basically no evidence? Got it.

 

[BDWoody]

They're the Audioengine A5+ active speakers and matching Audioengine S8 subwoofer but I doubt the OP would be interested because it involves a sub and the sub "only" goes down to 27hz

I suppose this brings to mind the size of the listening space and distance from LP to speakers.

Those may do well up close, but good luck once you move more than a few feet away.

I own them and like them a lot by the way... Not crapping on them.

 

[Kustomize]

Since DIY is a thing on ASR too now.
Paul Carmody’s Tarkus

-3db 29Hz

I believe its around 500 for parts and all. This is what I’d build!

 

[andreasmaaan]

Since DIY is a thing on ASR too now.
Paul Carmody’s Tarkus

-3db 29Hz

I believe its around 500 for parts and all. This is what I’d build!

Oddly, even on the Tarkus website, the FR given shows a -3dB point more like 40-45Hz:

That's also more consistent with what box modelling would suggest for this woofer (my sim gives me a -3dB point of 39Hz in a 62 litre enclosure tuned to 30Hz, but in reality you're going to lose a bit of extension as a result of the crossover, which would be consistent with the 40-45Hz shown above).

 

[detlev24]

I agree. How do you define accuracy, is it a pretty Spin?

As I pointed out previously, there is just one definition of (high) audio fidelity, which would give (high) accuracy:

- flat frequency response [anechoic]
- low noise
- low distortion
- low time-based errors (usually, not audible in today's digital domain)

There is nothing else to be considered; besides room acoustics and personal preferences. The latter obviously not being of scientific value...

A 'Klippel NFS' etc. comprises just a set of tools to visualize the magnitude of errors in those (4) categories - and displays them in different planes (like the "Spinorama"). Your previously mentioned 'group delay', for example, would manifest in the area of distortion.

However, I am sure you have noticed that Neumann's 2-way 'KH 120' measures better in certain categories, especially regarding vertical dispersion, than their 3-way 'KH 420'. Every design choice has its flaws, incl. 4-ways, and those will manifest in at least one of the aforementioned categories.

PSYCHOACOUSTICS is the scientific field that studies at which magnitude those errors are still acceptable, before having an audible impact to our hearing. Any loudspeaker that shines in the above (4) categories will be "accurate" and therefore a good choice for any kind of music (re-)production. 2-way, 3-way, 4-way; sealed, ported etc. // Obviously always put into relation to a certain target SPL.

The recent line of B&W loudspeakers would certainly not qualify for high accuracy; as a side note.

 

[richard12511]

I agree. How do you define accuracy, is it a pretty Spin?

Pretty spin is the first requirement(for me), and without it, you're out of the race from the start. After a pretty spin, I would also want to see separate horizontal and dispersion graphs, polar maps, and distortion graphs. I don't view distortion as all that important, but less is still better than more, and could be a tie-breaker. I don't find much use in CSD graphs, but some like to see those as well. I also don't place much importance in time domain stuff.

 

[Kustomize]

Oddly, even on the Tarkus website, the FR given shows a -3dB point more like 40-45Hz:

View attachment 93530

That's also more consistent with what box modelling would suggest for this woofer (my sim gives me a -3dB point of 39Hz in a 62 litre enclosure tuned to 30Hz, but in reality you're going to lose a bit of extension as a result of the crossover, which would be consistent with the 40-45Hz shown above).

Interesting....I read Paul’s description

“In a 62 liter box, the Peerless 830668 10" SLS gets an F3 of 29 Hz and can pump out 106 dB before excursion problems set in. It also has a healthy sensitivity around 89 dB (which equates to a net 85-86 dB after baffle step losses and floor-bounce gain are factored in). “

 

[thefsb]

Since DIY is a thing on ASR too now.
Paul Carmody’s Tarkus

-3db 29Hz

I believe its around 500 for parts and all. This is what I’d build!

Just don't play Side 2. Side 1 rocks. Side 2 is .... oh my.

 

[tuga]

A 'Klippel NFS' etc. comprises just a set of tools to visualize the magnitude of errors in those (4) categories - and displays them in different planes (like the "Spinorama"). Your previously mentioned 'group delay', for example, would manifest in the area of distortion.

A Spin doesn't show HD nor IMD nor group delay, only frequency response, directivity and resonances.
Soon you'll be telling me that if two speakers produce simitlar Spins they will sound the same...

However, I am sure you have noticed that Neumann's 2-way 'KH 120' measures better in certain categories, especially regarding vertical dispersion, than their 3-way 'KH 420'. Every design choice has its flaws, incl. 4-ways, and those will manifest in at least one of the aforementioned categories.

In a treated control room the better vertical dispersion is for show only. Same for horizontal directivity.

PSYCHOACOUSTICS is the scientific field that studies at which magnitude those errors are still acceptable, before having an audible impact to our hearing. Any loudspeaker that shines in the above (4) categories will be "accurate" and therefore a good choice for any kind of music (re-)production. 2-way, 3-way, 4-way; sealed, ported etc. // Obviously always put into relation to a certain target SPL.

A field that is relatively unexplored pehaps? Could you point me to a few audibility studies of HD and IMD in the bass and sub-bass.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Interesting....I read Paul’s description

“In a 62 liter box, the Peerless 830668 10" SLS gets an F3 of 29 Hz and can pump out 106 dB before excursion problems set in. It also has a healthy sensitivity around 89 dB (which equates to a net 85-86 dB after baffle step losses and floor-bounce gain are factored in). “

It may pump out 106dB at higher frequencies, but certainly not 29hz.

 

[carewser]

I suppose this brings to mind the size of the listening space and distance from LP to speakers.

Those may do well up close, but good luck once you move more than a few feet away.

I own them and like them a lot by the way... Not crapping on them.

I don't know what room you've got yours in but my room is L-shaped and 170sq/ft with office carpet over a concrete floor-light years from ideal

 

[BDWoody]

I don't know what room you've got yours in but my room is L-shaped and 170sq/ft with office carpet over a concrete floor-light years from ideal

The Audioengines are in the kitchen. The main listening room is about 15'x19', with the seating position about 14' from the speakers. I have JBL 708P's in there, and they hold up nicely. They are also 500W per speaker (2x250W amps).

 

[richard12511]

Soon you'll be telling me that if two speakers produce simitlar Spins they will sound the same...

I would say they'll sound similar.