Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[Skylarlove1999]

No, it is not libelous if the statement is in fact true. Amir said: "the measured performance of their products are all over the place."
Proof that the measured performance of their products are indeed all over the place as follows (3600H as an example of such a product):

1. Authorized Dealer sites like Crutchfield https://bit.ly/2Yhdkp6 and Accessories4Less https://bit.ly/2NdiZ9p have specifications showing measured performance as 105 watts, 0.08% THD through 4 ohms; this is vastly different than what is published on Denon's own product site https://bit.ly/3hJMVb4 and Audioholics press release https://bit.ly/2zLKHqA which both state 105 watts, 0.08 THD on 8 ohms.
2. But wait, there's more: on Amazon's 3600H product page, where you can download the product sheet https://bit.ly/2NeoX9X , there's talk of 0.08% THD (assuming this means Total Harmonic Distortion), and this appears to be the lowest (best?) value available, and yet, when you go to Denon's own online manual https://bit.ly/3hUuj8C we see two separate measurements representing the lowest distortion, specifically, there is "0.08% T.H.D." and then there's something just labeled as "Distortion 0.008 % (20 Hz – 20 kHz) (Direct mode)". Interesting, no other dealer site or product site for the 3600H indicates 0.008% for any measured Distortion, but here it is in Denon's official online manual.

So what is the consumer to think? First, is the measured distortion through 8 or 4 ohms? And is it 0.008% or 0.08%? And is there a difference between T.H.D. and just plain old "Distortion"?

COME ON, you have to admit that this is clearly evidence of measured performance being "all over the place" and requiring a third party to clear things up! This took me less than 15 minutes on Google to put together.

Denon and every audio brand out there massage the numbers. In real world listening of a movie or television soundtrack these measurements will never be heard. Yes audiophile equipment for two channel listening is a different beast and I understand there you would hear an audible difference with audiophile grade speakers. But these mass produced AVR'S are not in that class
It is silly to expect them to have the same performance measurements at a tenth of the cost.

 

[Angsty]

I actually have more important things to do then wait around for posts and reply. I have more relationships in the Audio Video Industry than you could possibly fathom to be honest. But my credentials and relationships aren't necessary to call out hypocrisy of a dealer posting reviews without disclosing those relationships. Posting that info at the top of every review would make the review more credible . Not disclosing it calls into question the reviewer's integrity even if the measurements are what they are. Because then it becomes more about the reviewer's motivations rather than the measurements and why wouldn't they disclose that info if they had nothing to hide. Even you can understand that. Maybe. LOL

With every post, credibility erodes and greater hilarity ensues. If @Skylarlove1999 were a person of integrity, he or she might have found a better way to enter the space versus yelling “libel” a few minutes after signing up. No patience for bad faith.

 

[Baff]

Anyone know when the X8700 is coming?

There will not be an X8700, at least not this year. Around the end of the year, the X8500HA will come out. It will just be the 8500 with the HDMI upgraded to 2.1

 

[North_Sky]

Their first response was hilarious haha, they did not pay attention at first. Now they must be pulling their hairs

It's tough to concentrate during a pandemic on Twitter.

 

[North_Sky]

Is this indicative of Denon as a company, or do they make decent stuff? I've been looking at a surround sound processor with XLR outputs but don't want it to share components with this if it's not good.

Marantz is same company as Denon. They make two av pre 7705 and 8805. Both measure really badly. Worse than Denon 3600 avr.

As for difference in sound quality, what sounds better or what matches your speakers and amps better I have no idea.

You'd think the 8805 would sound great, however with the 14khz roll off it would sound a little bit lacking in treble. Like having thx cinema re-eq always on.

• https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...marantz-av8805-av-processor.6926/#post-154371

 

[MZKM]

It is silly to expect them to have the same performance measurements at a tenth of the cost.

Is it silly to expect them to perform at the same level, or better, than the generation it succeeded, and a lower level model at that?

That is the main issue people are taking with these measurements. Denon is aware of this review, first they said it looks right, then they deleted that and say they will contact the engineers.

Companies should know how their products perform, that is a huge concern if they don’t. If something seemed broken, then contacting the company to let them know is courteous (and Amir has already shown that he has done that in one of his replies to you), but your suggestion of hiding this information before coming public is a terrible thing to do for all the people who have ordered or are considering buying a product; Amazon is usually nice, but a lot of companies charge return shipping and/or a restocking fee, so suggesting people use their ears is not the best stance to take, as you are wasting people’s money if there is an alternative that is similarly priced yet better in all regards (granted not the exact case here with the HDMI 2.1 aspect and the all that).

 

[Sal1950]

With every post, credibility erodes and greater hilarity ensues. If @Skylarlove1999 were a person of integrity, he or she might have found a better way to enter the space versus yelling “libel” a few minutes after signing up. No patience for bad faith.

He's not even close to the most clever fan-boy that's come here trying to defend his favorite POS when it came up lacking in engineering excellence. The same-same as ever, no competing documentation, not even a logical argument against how the numbers were obtained. Just a bunch of BS, yadada yadada, yadada, that makes no sense and reveals nothing to support the posters credibility.
.

I could tell you but I don't like you very much.

NO you couldn't, you don't have the "inside scoop" you'd like folks to believe you do.

 

[North_Sky]

Please prove to me what I posted that would be considered libel in a courtroom? LOL. Where did you get your law degree? So more traffic more users who might make donations. More money. It is unethical not to disclose business relationships when posting reviews of competing products. That is Ethics 101.

You keep crying like a baby...bla bla bla...

Amir has been around long enough, and he's the most honest on where he came from.

You should relax, take a breath, take your time, sit down comfortably, and read more ASR for a higher level of education in audio science. Spin some Opera music (or Tango) to go along with relaxing, sing a little in tandem, and dance to the end of love ...

You're not on meds, are you?

 

[Baff]

There will not be an X8700, at least not this year. Around the end of the year, the X8500HA will come out.

Forgot to mention, there will be also a 110th Anniversary edition AVR coming out around September. It will probably be the same as the X8500HA, but with a fancy paint job, much like the 100th Anniversary A100. They should announce the specs in August.

 

[North_Sky]

Seems really strange to have never tested any Harman branded products this way. Why haven't you?

Harmon Kardan, do they have a new 2020 receiver lineup?
...With Logic 7.

Curious, which brand you like best?

 

[SimpleTheater]

I could tell you but I don't like you very much.

But you’re my favorite poster. Where else can I laugh at these, already, classic lines:

* For the results to be relied upon at least 20 units should have been measured
* I will stop replying.
* Why couldn't it be that he got one of the bad units one out of a thousand
* The reviewer clearly has an agenda. If he really wanted to improve the product why go about it publicly? [@amirm why, oh why, on a public site did you review this product publicly?]
* I didn't come here to make my friends
* I said you can design a test to ensure a product will be unable to pass the test

Not to mention your unfathomable audio industry contacts, not knowing Arcam is a Harman brand, asking “What is your company?” [even though it’s in his signature], and the best one is you don’t know the legal threshold for libel.

 

[nrabbit]

You do know what LinkedIn is correct? The number 1 means he is a direct connection. How many more direct connections do you want to see? LOL. You crack me up.

*is friends with denon CEO on linkedin*
*complains about denon review*

*also complains about amir impartiality*

 

[North_Sky]

Please ban this guy

Actually he can get the best audio science education right here @ ASR.
He should have that chance, it's only fair.
Then he'll become a loyal ally and a good boy for the audio society.
That's how we build assets in 2020 and beyond.

Besides, science is part of a 3-dimensional world plus time (the 4th).

 

[North_Sky]

Changed my mind, let's keep him he is fun after all.
btw in the graph he posted two of the worst avr tested are Arcam and the second best is a Denon.

Yes, now you're talking. Let the guy realize on his own...it's the best way to learn in life.
In these tough times we need more compassion and support, ...all of us.

We are a deserving human species, very.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

But you’re my favorite poster. Where else can I laugh at these, already, classic lines:

* For the results to be relied upon at least 20 units should have been measured
* I will stop replying.
* Why couldn't it be that he got one of the bad units one out of a thousand
* The reviewer clearly has an agenda. If he really wanted to improve the product why go about it publicly? [@amirm why, oh why, on a public site did you review this product publicly?]
* I didn't come here to make my friends
* I said you can design a test to ensure a product will be unable to pass the test

Not to mention your unfathomable audio industry contacts, not knowing Arcam is a Harman brand, asking “What is your company?” [even though it’s in his signature], and the best one is you don’t know the legal threshold for libel.

LOL. Thanks for caring

 

[Skylarlove1999]

*is friends with denon CEO on linkedin*
*complains about denon review*

*also complains about amir impartiality*

Never said I was impartial. I just don't believe that Amir is impartial either. No one is impartial.

 

[MZKM]

What are Amir's credentials

Also in his signature:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-bit-about-your-host.1906/

No one needs to worship anyone (you should see the complainants around his subjectove reviews of speakers ) we just need to look at the measurements, which have been shown to be accurate and match the company specs if they too have good measurement gear (his measurements were better than what PS Audio has claimed, and I think it was shown their measurement rig can’t measure better than CD quality). Unless you are implying that he intentionally screws up performance by changing some parameters.

 

[SimpleTheater]

Never said I was impartial. I just don't believe that Amir is impartial either. No one is impartial.

So what test did Amir run that you think showed a lack of impartiality? Because he runs the same tests with the same instrument. I’m not sure if you know what impartial means.

Edit: I’m sure you don’t know what impartial means.

 

[zelig]

Needless to say WhatHiFi.com are already cruising their superlatives dictionary to decorate their upcoming reviews of the new Denon receivers. They are already paving the way with their recent Denon Press release news article: "Denon’s world first 8K-ready AVRs are feature-packed and future-proofed".

Thank you Amir for bringing us back down to Earth. Some day not too far away more people may read your reviews than the mindless gushings of the audiophile paparazzi. In the meantime folks, when you're talking to your Denon reps, point them to this site and remind them that not everyone is drinking their Koolaid.

 

[Angsty]

He's not even close to the most clever fan-boy that's come here trying to defend his favorite POS when it came up lacking in engineering excellence. The same-same as ever, no competing documentation, not even a logical argument against how the numbers were obtained. Just a bunch of BS, yadada yadada, yadada, that makes no sense and reveals nothing to support the posters credibility.

@Skylarlove1999 is worse than some misguided fan-boy; Skylarlove1999 is a troll. I don’t feed trolls, but I don’t mind coming for them with torches and pitchforks. The lack of simple, civil respect is infuriating. There are ample ways to disagree without libel threats. Threats demonstrate no respect for target and should garner no respect for the would-be intimidator.