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Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

j_j

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There was an AES presentation years ago on the problems with un-dithered commercial CD's. It's easy to show that the correct amount of TPDF dither acts as additive noise and there is no "averaging" out or masking. There are some esoteric issues around moments of random distributions but that is out of my experience.

I won't name names, but I was shouted at very nastily by a producer in a panel at the AES, many years ago, who shouted "you're an idiot, I'm not going to add noise to MY music". Sadly, that attitude continues in some places until today, but most people have sorted it, finally. The fact that dither eliminates signal-correlated errors is the key, and linearization does seem to be often lost.
 

xr100

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I won't name names, but I was shouted at very nastily by a producer in a panel at the AES, many years ago, who shouted "you're an idiot, I'm not going to add noise to MY music". Sadly, that attitude continues in some places until today, but most people have sorted it, finally. The fact that dither eliminates signal-correlated errors is the key, and linearization does seem to be often lost.

:facepalm: Thankfully, as you say, even if not always understood or adhered to, at least the need for dither has been widely disseminated and is well known these days, and well supported by the available tools.

The trouble is that, even at if at key points dither is properly applied, there is also the entire "chain" to consider.

And, a fortunate as we are, relatively speaking, today, when potentially a whole galaxy of DSP options may be run on even an old laptop--the situation, alas, is the "wild west."

As a pertinent and straightforward example, one software plug-in I found converts the floating-point input internally to fixed-point.

Therefore, it hard clips at 0dBFS. Nowhere is there ANY indication of this, not in the manual, no "CLIP" indicator on the plug-in's GUI, and given that this is a "linear" process--it is not a "distortion generator," nor a dynamic range processor--there ought not to be any reason when working in a floating-point environment to be concerned about exceeding 0dBFS at the input, even if that's "bad practice." And, if that gaping pitfall is avoided, what might have been an end-to-end 64-bit floating-point environment is--whether or not it matters--rudely interrupted.

There are still "professional" software-based IIR digital EQ's/filters out there that can and will generate idle tones given the right circumstances/settings. ;-) And this is merely scratching the surface of potential DSP "disaster areas..."

(And, this is all of broader relevance to this site given all the reviews of DSP-loaded equipment, AVR's for instance. What is going on internally...?)
 
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xr100

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Yeah, I was going to object to the portrayal of dither as "psychoacoustic treatment" because it is absolutely nothing of the sort, it is linearization of the quantizer, no more, no less. It replaces signal-correlated distortions with a constant noise floor. Again, there is no masking, and the resulting quantizations create no spectral lines with the TPDF. Were we to use uniform dither, the second order error (power) would not be linearized, you would hear noise come and go with signal energy, which is why we use TPDF. It means that both the signal is linearized, AND that the added noise level is exactly constant.

Thanks JJ.

The question one might ask is, what about the third order error, and why can it be (perceptually speaking) disregarded? :)
 
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xr100

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Just had a quick look at "Lipshitz et al."--the following appears to be of great relevance to the preceding discussion in this thread (my emphasis)--

"Triangular-pdf dither of 2-LSB peak-to-peak amplitude incurs the least increase in the rms total error level of any nonsubtractive dither which eliminates input-dependent distortion and noise modulation."
 
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Serge Smirnoff

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Yeah, I was going to object to the portrayal of dither as "psychoacoustic treatment" because it is absolutely nothing of the sort, it is linearization of the quantizer, no more, no less. It replaces signal-correlated distortions with a constant noise floor. Again, there is no masking, and the resulting quantizations create no spectral lines with the TPDF. Were we to use uniform dither, the second order error (power) would not be linearized, you would hear noise come and go with signal energy, which is why we use TPDF. It means that both the signal is linearized, AND that the added noise level is exactly constant.

The fact you need to edit the files says to me that you aren't looking at the entire problem, and again, it shows clearly that you MUST consider perception.
Psychoacoustic treatment is not limited by using masking. Dithering is a signal processing that always results in degradation of a signal waveform (adding noise) but the same time it improves auditory perception of that signal. Such “magic” processing can be based only on some knowledge of perception - a product of psychoacoustic research. So, dithering is a perfect example of psychoacoustic treatment of audio signal. I think it is obvious.
 

Serge Smirnoff

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In this case, the distortion in the rounded/truncated files is perceptually "nasty," at worst almost turning single piano notes into sounding like "power chords" played on electric guitar through "overdrive" distortion/FX.
Anyone can take your piano samples and sort them according to closeness to the original. Having a number of such “sortings” performed by various people, will they all be identical? Especially if some of that people don't like piano and love overdrived electric guitar ... or some of that people never heard of piano and for them it is just an unknown sound, which they hear for the first time. That is why some relation between measurements and perception can be found only for simple signals, in such cases perception is just an acquisition of sound signal without comprehension. In case of complex music signal the comprehension matters and the relation becomes extremely complicated, it can not be reliably found in practice (even by means of neural network). The solution is different.
 

j_j

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Psychoacoustic treatment is not limited by using masking. Dithering is a signal processing that always results in degradation of a signal waveform (adding noise) but the same time it improves auditory perception of that signal. Such “magic” processing can be based only on some knowledge of perception - a product of psychoacoustic research. So, dithering is a perfect example of psychoacoustic treatment of audio signal. I think it is obvious.


Now that is just wrong. When you drop below 1/2 LSB with your 1kHz sine wave it disappears from the signal. It's gone, if you don't dither.

If you dither it is visible IN THE SPECTRUM FAR FAR ABOVE the flat noise floor.

You do not understand what 'linearization' means. Dither is IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER a perceptual phenomenon. IT IS A MATHEMATICAL REQUIREMENT FOR LEAST LOSSY QUANTIZATION.

Do not claim this is "obvious". You are misteaching in a most profoundly wrong fashion, and I simply will not abide misteaching.

Note, I've started a separate discussion on the ***MATHEMATICAL*** issues surrounding dithering in another thread.

Please don't continue this misteaching, Serge.
 
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j_j

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Thanks JJ.

The question one might ask is, what about the third order error, and why can it be (perceptually speaking) disregarded? :)

First order eliminates harmonic-like components. Second order eliminates noise modulations. It's hard to say what third order does, other than make the statistics more linear to third-order statistics. It's NOT the same as eliminating a distortion, that happens at first order.
 

j_j

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Having a number of such “sortings” performed by various people, will they all be identical? Especially if some of that people don't like piano and love overdrived electric guitar ... or some of that people never heard of piano and for them it is just an unknown sound, which they hear for the first time.

We're talking about impairment, not equivocation and appeal to ignorance.

But first, go back and learn how dither works and why you're spouting something that is fundamentally wrong about dither.
 

bennetng

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The highly audible quantization effects in the truncated file can be considered as a "cool" effect in a "bit-crunched" "80's" way and those of a certain age may find them quite reminiscent of, for instance, certain sound chips found in early home computers and games consoles. (The Yamaha 4-operator FM chip in the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis, for example.) However, it represents gross distortion and is not suitable for general purpose use.
At least emulators sound great.
 

xr100

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At least emulators sound great.


;)

Oh dear, metallic FM synthesis "clang clang" patch alert!

Trying to keep "on topic," all the "oddities" of the old FM synthesis chips need to be considered if you want an "accurate" emulation. IIRC, I think someone uncapped the OPL3 (horrible low cost 2-op IC!) to document what was really going on inside?

We get onto which "artifacts" are actually a desired part of the instrument's sound. The really severe truncation that happened in the MegaDrive hardware, surely not? I suspect the emulators, if operating in float internally, aren't dithering their outputs, though?

If you want the cleanest possible FM synthesis, then it needs to be running at the highest possible sample rate to avoid aliasing, as modulating one operator with another creates an infinite series of partials/harmonics. Thus, it's not like generating a sawtooth or square wave using band-limited techniques.

In the world of DSP, sufficient bit-depth (in processing) and dither alone are not the only things needed to avoid complete garbage being spewed out!
 
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xr100

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Especially if some of that people don't like piano and love overdrived electric guitar ... or some of that people never heard of piano and for them it is just an unknown sound, which they hear for the first time.

The 4-bit truncate toward zero is not *totally* useless... if used as a source for "sound design" by feeding through some FX... o_O

https://we.tl/t-WHuLNwluVr

[Link expires in 7 days.]
 
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bennetng

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;)

Oh dear, metallic FM synthesis "clang clang" patch alert!

Trying to keep "on topic," all the "oddities" of the old FM synthesis chips need to be considered if you want an "accurate" emulation. IIRC, I think someone uncapped the OPL3 (horrible low cost 2-op IC!) to document what was really going on inside?

We get onto which "artifacts" are actually a desired part of the instrument's sound. The really severe truncation that happened in the MegaDrive hardware, surely not? I suspect the emulators, if operating in float internally, aren't dithering their outputs, though?

If you want the cleanest possible FM synthesis, then it needs to be running at the highest possible sample rate to avoid aliasing, as modulating one operator with another creates an infinite series of partials/harmonics. Thus, it's not like generating a sawtooth or square wave using band-limited techniques.

In the world of DSP, sufficient bit-depth (in processing) and dither alone are not the only things needed to avoid complete garbage being spewed out!
How about listening to a recording of the real hardware (not Mega Drive though) and read the comments from one of the authors of these emulators...
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=114247.msg941114#msg941114
 
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Serge Smirnoff

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Well, until you compare original signal to error signal, you're still not going anywhere useful.
I think that comparison of error signals with one another results in more useful results than comparison of error signal to original. Art.signatures actually represents (in some sense) error signals computed with vast amount of real music material. Their comparison (in the form of distances) helps to separate different types of signal degradation into clusters according to their similarity. Within each cluster correlation of perceived audio quality to df levels is high enough [https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...od-for-measuring-distortion.10282/post-285578].
 

Serge Smirnoff

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The upsampled file spectrum shows it's "brickwalled" at ~20kHz, and it appears that all of the added "out of band" (>20kHz) energy has been included in the "DF Metric" calculation.
Yes, df metric accounts ALL. Its measurements are simple as volt measurements. It can not be used as is for predicting/assessment of perceived audio quality. It can be used for the purpose only in combination with art.signature analysis, which deals with the knowledge of perception, though in a very simple way.
 

Serge Smirnoff

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BTW, I realise you are using the word "sample" in a different sense
Yes, I can do sometimes as English is not my native tongue. That is why I use sometimes two words (slashed) instead of one.

Sample = sound sample. Excerpt is probably a better word for this.
 

Serge Smirnoff

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That's not the case for the 32-bit float original.

"Between notes," i.e. after the note is "released," the signal decays but is still around -90dB typical at when the next note is triggered.
I used the term "digital silence" in a way as it is used in Audio Precision waveform generator - dithered silence, not equal to zero.
 
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