Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[digicidal]

Duh yea, it's late, fixed.

Oh I hear that.

It's too bad that NAD doesn't seem to be pursuing the same direction as their "Lenbrook brother" PSB in regard to new products. At the very least the new Alpha seems to be a slightly better successor to the previous models (and arguably superior to many commerical offerings within their price-point). The same can't necessarily be said for the T758 vs. a similarly priced D/M or Yamaha product it seems.

 

[restorer-john]

Sighted, it is easy to fall in love with anything.

I think that's prefectly normal, but sometimes it takes objective observers to tell you you may be making the wrong decision...not just with HiFi either.

 

[restorer-john]

Companies making this are just being ridiculous because they can. It is easy to make stuff that is fully clean any way you look at it -90 db down from peak levels. Such gear will sound fine very nearly all the time. Even if I ran a division for a company trying to compete, I'd make sure my gear could manage 16 bits worth of sound cleanly.

Maybe the market is ripe for someone to start up from scratch, do lots of testing and call these people out. Make a few really decent products for cheap and directly attack the competition on how poorly they do in comparison.

Blame the Sony engineers for holding out for 16 bit. They caused all this.

They set the bar so high, that even 35+ years later, companies can get away with brand new digital HiFi gear that sometimes doesn't even hit the 14 bit (Philips) level. And yet people who buy this gear, don't complain do they?

With off-the-shelf solutions, even badly implemented designs, knocked up on breadboard in a teenager's bedroom can come close to or exceed 16 bits, so there's absolutely zero excuse for previously respected brands to trash their reputation with poor performing commercial products.

 

[bidn]

Re. AVRs,
I bought only a few, but always from Onkyo ( twice their TOTL model from the time for my living room and once a lower model for my study): at least they provide some measurements, are quite up to date re. things like codecs and connectivity, and not super-expensive like some trademarks with an audiophile reputation. Once a network card (essential for me because I put my music on my Synology NAS) died, but they had a good replacement program and helpful and nice people at their customer support.

 

[digicidal]

Once a network card (essential for me because I put my music on my Synology NAS) died, but they had a good replacement program and helpful and nice people at their customer support.

Which is definitely worth a little extra money in the deal IMO. However, with this performance level... NAD would have to send someone to my home once a month to dust and vacuum the room for it to offset the rest.

 

[vkvedam]

I second that.

You mean like what Marantz does? Rip out the power amps, put in XLR output and increase the price although the parts cost goes down?

I still have my Marantz AV7701 available. It is now a few generations behind, on the other hand the specs have not changed at all - indeed they are identical for all AV77xx and AV88xx so chances are high that newer models perform similar. I could do these measurements

• THD
• Multitone
• IMD
• Jitter
• frequency response
• channel crosstalk

on these inputs

• SPDIF coax
• SPDIF Toslink
• analog line level
• analog phono

in these modes:

• standard (Audissey off)
• direct
• pure direct

Is there any interest? If yes which measurements should I do?

Pure Direct with all those inputs please

 

[RichB]

Is the general consensus that these review measurements are the primary determining factor of the sound quality of a component in the real world or is there significantly more to it than that?

I know what you are a getting at but I would say good engineering is the primary determining factor of the sound quality that can be verified with measurements.

- Rich

 

[SimpleTheater]

Anthem might turn out to be the beneficiary of these AVR testing shoot-outs if the upcoming test does not disappoint but at higher $/channel. The ARC is pretty good in results if using auto mode as most people would, even if it is not equal to Dirac.

I'd bet on the Anthem disappointing in tests. When Shoreview distributing decided to go "mass market" about a decade ago, their quality suffered and their products weren't well thought out. Just get them to market quick.

Now they just got bought out by Scott Bagby (who's been with the company for years) in 2019, but its going to take some time to get better products to market. Of course, that assumes he wants to make better products.

 

[RichB]

Well re-reading this, and afrer I also went through the SMSL SU-8 v1-vs-v2 saga,
Is that really relevant to test an AVR amp this way?

Ok, that's a bit provocative, but
1. You will probably never use the preamp out at max level

On this point, I think it is a matter of gain matching to optimize components.
Hometheaterhifi measurements of the Theta Casablanca:

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...asablanca-iv-surround-sound-processor-review/

This is a an expensive processor that can put out a lot of voltage. I listen mainly at 1 watt. Using the AHB2 high-gain position, the preamp is outputting about .2 (200M) Vrms. The THD+N is 0.025 or -72 dB. However, I high-gain mode it will be in the .003 range or -93 dB, an improvement of 21 dB!

The Theta Casablanca preamp out THD+N ranges from -66 dB to -100 dB and many systems are likely to be closer the -66 than -100.
This data is needed to gain match and assure good performance in a system.

Concerning the NAD, the preamp section is sub-standard. The amplifier works best with efficient speakers but the THD+N is very high making it a bad match. Feature rich, performance starved.

- Rich

 

[peng]

I have had nothing but problems with Denons and Onkyos. Video circuitrys run very hot and obviously caps burn soon, giving noise, hum or silence.

I am surprised that Yamaha AVRs aren't popular in USA, in Europe I see them everywhere. I recently bought a RX-V685 for 550€. It has pre-outs for main L/R channels, which is critical for me as I use diy active speakers. Aventage (RX-A) series is overpriced IMO.

https://scoopjunction.com/audio-vid...ous-growth-in-near-future-key-players/194994/
While there is a number of companies engaged in Audio/Video Receiver (AVR), the report has listed the leading ones in the world. They are

• Sony
• Yamaha
• Onkyo (Pioneer)
• D+M Group
• LG Electronics
• Harman Kardon
• Inkel Corporation
• NAD
• Rotel
• Anthem AV Solutions Limited
• Pyle
• Cambridge Audio
• Arcam

Isn't it true that D+M, Onkyo(Pioneer) is now together, or still in talks only?

 

[peng]

Is the general consensus that these review measurements are the primary determining factor of the sound quality of a component in the real world or is there significantly more to it than that?

That's the objective side and I doubt there is consensus.. The subjective side would be influenced by Placebo effects, expectation bias, not measured (compared) under the exact same conditions/methodologies and existing hearsay. I prefer review measurements but love to read the subjective part too for entertainment.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Feature rich, performance starved.

Well said, @RichB.

^^ These are the defining characteristics of the overwhelming majority of AVRs sold today.

 

[peng]

Concerning the NAD, the preamp section is sub-standard. The amplifier works best with efficient speakers but the THD+N is very high making it a bad match. Feature rich, performance starved.

- Rich

The funny thing is, even if I don't always agree with Rich, I do trust Dr. Rich on his technical assessments. He pointed out time and again that LSI volume control IC being the bottleneck of AVRs and AV controllers, yet NAD is still using that very IC (or a slight variation in terms of the exact model number). More precisely, it is the T777 (service manual publicly available) that has it, but it is more than reasonable to assume the T758 has the same one. So by that standard, agreed, the preamp section is sub-standard.

 

[RichB]

The funny thing is, even if I don't always agree with Rich, I do trust Dr. Rich on his technical assessments. He pointed out time and again that LSI volume control IC being the bottleneck of AVRs and AV controllers, yet NAD is still using that very IC (or a slight variation in terms of the exact model number). More precisely, it is the T777 (service manual publicly available) that has it, but it is more than reasonable to assume the T758 has the same one. So by that standard, agreed, the preamp section is sub-standard.

I am not sure if we agree or not, but I always enjoy our talks.

With regard to the preamp THD+N, I wonder if this is a case where the THD and N should be separated. As volume is reduced if the noise floor is exposed that may be benign in many cases where distortion is not.

Edit: Has Dr. Rich retired? The measurements are lagging as of late.

- Rich

 

[peng]

I am not sure if we agree or not, but I always enjoy our talks.

With regard to the preamp THD+N, I wonder if this is a case where the THD and N should be separated. As volume is reduced if the noise floor is exposed that may be benign in many cases where distortion is not.

Edit: Has Dr. Rich retired? The measurements are lagging as of late.

- Rich

I think we do agree most of the times except the audibility of differences between amps such as the ATI Hypex class D vs their class AB kind of stuff. Dr. Rich appears to be still working with hometheaterhifi.com, based on the linked posted by @jhaider yesterday. The article was dated Aug 28, 2019, still hot off the press. So I hope he's not retired yet, at least part time would be great. Imo there is a real shortage of qualified EE who are experts in audio/video and who participate on forums where guys like you and I frequent.

 

[digicidal]

Concerning the NAD, the preamp section is sub-standard. The amplifier works best with efficient speakers but the THD+N is very high making it a bad match. Feature rich, performance starved.

- Rich

So common in AVRs but sadly also applies to a broad range of gear (even supposedly hifi focused ones). It would be really great if more of the major brands would get into the "numbers game" regarding performance, as they are in the one involving features. How many people in the world have a setup with 12/16/32 channels? How many of those that actually do have one, are shopping in the sub $2K AVR market? (Never mind the fact that there is almost no media mastered to take full advantage of it).

On the other hand, how many people with gear budgets small enough that a ~$1400 AVR is a good fit - also will use that as their "big" system for just listening to music? My guess would be over 90% at least. Why not give them comparatively fantastic preamp/DAC performance as well - like many $300 Chinese desktop options achieve. You'd think that would be possible for $1400?

 

[GrimSurfer]

Your heart is in the right place @digicidal. Just be mindful of how manufacturers responded to the numbers game last time around:

First numbers game: (1980s) Music power, peak power, PMPO

Second numbers game: (2000s) Outputs at 6 and 2 ohms, despite products not being able to legimately drive such speaker loads. MultiCh, but specs showing power output at 1 or 2 channels driven. Plus all the peak and PMPO bull$hit from the 80s.

It's time for the FTC to jump in, as they once did. Not going to happen under this administration but independent measurements will build the case for their re-entry sometime after 2020.

 

[xhattan]

I have owned several high end AVRs, including Denon´s 4520CI, Yamaha Aventage, Pioneer SC-75 (grrreat THX AVR) and SC-85. The NAD T758v3 is far better than any of them, with DIRAC making a huge difference. Sound is breathtaking and bass management is far superior. However, I use it in a small room and have never pushed it beyond -5 dB and have an Emotiva 5 channel amp taking care of atmos and center duties. Speakers are Kef LS50 for fronts and center and smaller Kefs surrounds for rest of 5.1.4 setup.

The NAD has several issues, specially with ARC, but sound isn´t one of them. Check the thread at AVS and almost anyone will atest to that. I accept that maybe its DAC may be sub pared (NAD won´t even disclose the brand), but DIRAC makes it up for that. Room correction will always, always, always be more important for sound than a DAC, and if correctly implemented, DIRAC WILL provide a very pleasurable sound experience (at least for 95% of the people who have actually heard it). I really think the tested device must have some kind of flaw. And even if it doesn´t, consider that any distortion is only measurable (and hardly perceptible) at reference levels, so loud it will really be annoying to ears in a normal room.

I do have a separate 2 channel setup for music, so can´t give an opinion on that. However, my 5.1 music blu rays (Steven Wilson, Porcupine Tree, Rush, Roger Waters, Marillion, etc.) sound absolutely sublime with the NAD.

Bottomline, don´t toss the T758 aside yet. Give it a try and take a personal informed decision.

 

[SmackDaddies]

I have owned several high end AVRs, including Denon´s 4520CI, Yamaha Aventage, Pioneer SC-75 (grrreat THX AVR) and SC-85. The NAD T758v3 is far better than any of them, with DIRAC making a huge difference. Sound is breathtaking and bass management is far superior. However, I use it in a small room and have never pushed it beyond -5 dB and have an Emotiva 5 channel amp taking care of atmos and center duties. Speakers are Kef LS50 for fronts and center and smaller Kefs surrounds for rest of 5.1.4 setup.

The NAD has several issues, specially with ARC, but sound isn´t one of them. Check the thread at AVS and almost anyone will atest to that. I accept that maybe its DAC may be sub pared (NAD won´t even disclose the brand), but DIRAC makes it up for that. Room correction will always, always, always be more important for sound than a DAC, and if correctly implemented, DIRAC WILL provide a very pleasurable sound experience (at least for 95% of the people who have actually heard it). I really think the tested device must have some kind of flaw. And even if it doesn´t, consider that any distortion is only measurable (and hardly perceptible) at reference levels, so loud it will really be annoying to ears in a normal room.

I do have a separate 2 channel setup for music, so can´t give an opinion on that. However, my 5.1 music blu rays (Steven Wilson, Porcupine Tree, Rush, Roger Waters, Marillion, etc.) sound absolutely sublime with the NAD.

Bottomline, don´t toss the T758 aside yet. Give it a try and take a personal informed decision.

Amir point is that they completely boned the DAC. As in can't compete with a $9 apple dongle. That is ****** engineering design.

 

[GrimSurfer]

So here's what you're saying @xhattan:

You have a 758 but much of the amplification is being handled by your Emotiva. Filling a small room at less than reference levels.

You acknowledge that the DAC is sub-par but DIRAC will take care of that. Please explain how audio correction solves SINAD, THD etc.

Now explain on what logical basis, following an independent measurement by an extremely competent source that says that the 758 has serious performance shortcomings, we should buy and try.