Audible difference in high-end capacitors? - ABX samples

[voodooless]

I'm still thinking if I should write a reply or not......for people who are working in the professional area with different capacitors in speakers and electronics, the differences are very clear, and you could discuss if one prefers this one or the other one.....but nobody would say there is no difference.

It’s almost as if it’s an engineering problem, not a magic spell…. Who would have thought

 

[changer]

I'm still thinking if I should write a reply or not......for people who are working in the professional area with different capacitors in speakers and electronics, the differences are very clear, and you could discuss if one prefers this one or the other one.....but nobody would say there is no difference.

Please do! This comparison was conducted between three film-type capacitors, MKT, MKP, and Aluminum. Do you have data available from your developments that suggest audible difference between these types?

 

[SSS]

@DonR This is a faulty bead tant (10uF 25V) with only 16V DC applied after about 30 seconds. Starts off as a 10uF capacitor, then the leakage current gradually increases and it acts like a mini heater. At 25V it will heat up really fast.

View attachment 319823

Well known with the Tantal drop caps. Also they tend to break down with full short circuit when too fast and too high inrush current. Prior to insert one I test with a regulated and current limited power supply whether they behave right.

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

It’s almost as if it’s an engineering problem, not a magic spell…. Who would have thought

A big part of Audio engineering is the voicing of the devices. I'm talking about companies like Marantz, Denon and Yamaha....all of those companies spend a lot of time voicing the units. Compare a Denon with a Marantz. They often use the same basic unit, but they give it a different balance. This might be different from crazy DIY people and Ultra High-End Nerds, who think changing one capacitor makes the magic.
Nichicon offers a whole range with different sounding capacitors, Elna did as well. Unfortunately, the companies are now stopping those parts, so it's not getting easier.
So, yes, in a way it is an engineering problem........even so, you might think, it's not.

 

[voodooless]

Yet again we have a nice story and zero proof.

 

[pma]

Nichicon offers a whole range with different sounding capacitors, Elna did as well. Unfortunately, the companies are now stopping those parts, so it's not getting easier.

Like in the PSU?? Would you mind to elaborate a bit?

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

Yet again we have a nice story and zero proof.

Yeah, and that's why I'm not writing any longer. Makes no sense.

 

[voodooless]

Yeah, and that's why I'm not writing any longer. Makes no sense.

Proving a point makes no sense? Really educational this…

 

[SIY]

A big part of Audio engineering is the voicing of the devices. I'm talking about companies like Marantz, Denon and Yamaha....all of those companies spend a lot of time voicing the units.

Huh.

 

[pma]

Yeah, and that's why I'm not writing any longer. Makes no sense.

I am quite familiar with Nichicom capacitors and they are still available, though sometimes with horrible lead time. Again, would you mind to elaborate?

 

[fpitas]

This thread has taken a puzzling turn.

 

[pma]

Proving a point makes no sense? Really educational this…

And the man has a label of “Technical expert”. Sometimes really strange, here.

 

[pkane]

And the man has a label of “Technical expert”. Sometimes really strange, here.

Apparently, an expert in voicing capacitors.

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

Proving a point makes no sense? Really educational this…

How do you want me to prove a point? When you ask a chef to cook a meal and use the ingredients the way he likes them to get the taste he wants - are you asking him later on to prove his point that it tests better? Give the same recipe to different chefs and you will get different-tasting meals.

To me, it looks like many people who are asking to prove a point have never in their life really worked on an Audio device. And why do it have to prove a point? Can you prove your point that there is no difference? Don't tell me the test with those capacitors is the right test. No, it's not.

So I'm quiet, you keep your opinion and I have more free time.

Maybe an administrator should delete my account............

 

[antcollinet]

A big part of Audio engineering is the voicing of the devices. I'm talking about companies like Marantz, Denon and Yamaha....all of those companies spend a lot of time voicing the units. Compare a Denon with a Marantz. They often use the same basic unit, but they give it a different balance. This might be different from crazy DIY people and Ultra High-End Nerds, who think changing one capacitor makes the magic.
Nichicon offers a whole range with different sounding capacitors, Elna did as well. Unfortunately, the companies are now stopping those parts, so it's not getting easier.
So, yes, in a way it is an engineering problem........even so, you might think, it's not.

So, where does that voicing come from. When we measure two devices (eg a Denon and a Marantz) and they both have flat frequency response, inaudible noise, and inaudible distortion - where is the voicing?

 

[Apesbrain]

for people who are working in the professional area with different capacitors in speakers and electronics, the differences are very clear

This is just another way of saying that if someone else can't hear a difference it's because their system isn't resolving enough, their ears are inadequate, or they aren't educated enough to appreciate what they hear. It's nonsense, particularly on this forum.

 

[pma]

In fact, it is only another kind of marketing, wrapped in “professional” fog. More here:

Just Blogging – by Karl-Heinz Fink

 

[pkane]

Can you prove your point that there is no difference?

Did you miss the OP in this thread where exactly this was done for specific capacitors? There's no magic in capacitors. If they measure the same, they sound the same in the same circuit. You don't need to be a Technical Expert to understand this. "Voicing" a capacitor is a waste of time and is driven by cognitive biases and beliefs, not by science and engineering. Similar pursuits involve voicing AC cords, fuses, and cable lifters.

 

[ctrl]

.for people who are working in the professional area with different capacitors in speakers and electronics, the differences are very clear, and you could discuss if one prefers this one or the other one.....but nobody would say there is no difference.

I can't imagine that for speaker XO. Anyone who has ever electrically measured film capacitors selected for capacitance will have noticed that the differences as shown here are minimal (another example can be found in part one of the mini series where this was shown for another "high-end" capacitor).

Regarding purely electrically measured distortion of bipolar capacitors, one should have another look at Cyril Bateman's Capacitor Sound articles regarding distortion of film and electrolytic capacitors. Pay particular attention to the voltages used in the distortion measurements and the distortion of the "bad" bipolar electrolytic capacitors. I think according to Bateman's measurements, distortion of capacitors in crossovers is not a problem.

But the crucial question when using capacitors in passive crossovers is, are there acoustically measurable and especially staggering audible differences, as it is vehemently claimed by manufacturers, reviewers and "believers", when using, for example, standard film capacitors and "high-end" film capacitors?
Everyone can listen to the result for themselves here in the thread.

Those who cannot or do not want to believe the result can repeat the experiment for themselves without much effort. All you need are carefully selected capacitors, a tweeter that delivers consistent results and a low distortion measurement microphone.

One just has to accept that the near-field recordings of the capacitors (for the ABX-Test or Null-Test via DeltaWave) will contain all the acoustic differences that can occur when changing capacitors - If not, all hope is lost anyway

 

[changer]

Don't tell me the test with those capacitors is the right test. No, it's not.

But: why?

According to this article,

So geht Lautsprecher – Zu Besuch bei Karl-Heinz Fink

Wie entwickelt man HiFi-Lautsprecher? HIFI.DE ist dieser Frage bei Fink Audio Consulting in Essen nachgegangen.

hifi.de

your company uses a Klippel, Klippel NFS, COMSOL probably, and tons of other state of the art audio engineering devices. There should be one that provides data that can support your assertion.