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The quest for my hyper speaker - Very Large room dilemma

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aliqaz

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I’m not an expert, so all I can offer is my own ideas. Perhaps you won’t mind if I enjoy the conversation.
My movie room is similar volume to yours, little bit different dimensions, 14x25x9 ft. Two walls are nearly completely windows, glass door to the porch on a third wall, and two openings to other rooms on the fourth wall. Not an acoustically perfect room by any means. I am running JBL 4349 as left & right in that room in a 7.1 set up. Listening to two-channel stereo music, I found the bass quite weak for my taste, until an 18-in sub was added. Apart from that, the output is quite adequate.
I expect Kef makes something that will fill your room to your liking. I’ve heard Muon in a very large room, and it was deafening.
High output Genelec, Neumann and JBL will fill the bill sonically, but maybe not aesthetically. The frequency response of JBL’s for whatever reason are more lumpy than flat (in general) right out of the box. If memory serves, M2 and 4367 are exceptions to this. I haven’t seen spins for Everest. They are very large and heavy, so it may be no one but the manufacturer will ever measure them. Fortunately, for JBL, you can usually find anechoic measurements to apply corrective EQ, but this adds complexity and is inconvenient. I think it’s interesting that their designer, Greg Timbers, has them in his home, considerably modified from their stock condition. There’s a video interview floating around the internet, if you want to check it out.
I would discourage random experimentation with the likes of Tannoy Westmin$ter. I got a pair of Definition DC 10A because they were $7,000 used for speakers that retailed at $16,000, thinking I could recover my cost if they didn’t work out. In the end, they didn’t work out well, and new ones were on close out a couple years ago for $2,000 a pair brand spanking new (!!). So, you can imagine the loss I’d take trying to sell them now. That they were nearly giving them away like this is telling about how poor the design is. These (and Westminster) are based on very old designs. There are much better ways to do things, and there is no practical reason for their existence these days, imo. They only sell now by attaching fanciful notions of romance and nostalgia to them. Well, they do look good, and the craftsmanship is solid and beautiful. But functionally? Do look elsewhere.
I believe I understand and share your point of view. Stick to what you know to be good. There’s no good reason to gamble on something that doesn’t have published measurements available. I have found @pierre ’s site spinorama.org to be quite useful and interesting.
Thank you for the response. Yes, I believe our movie rooms are very similar. Mine is open with glass until button is pressed and curtains draw on all sides making the room very non-reverent. The jbl4349's work very well in that room whether or not they are run alone or paired with a 15 inch sub. The dynamics are maintained quite well in both situations and I'm able to run them quite loud with a lot of punch at very high spl's.
 
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aliqaz

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I have owned the Everests myself. I originally bought the DD66000s and then upgraded to the DD67000s. If your room has moderate damping and you add some subwoofers, I am sure your goals will be met. If the room is a highly reverberant glass box, no speaker will work anyway.

The bass from the DD67000s is quite good, but is nonexistent below about 40Hz so even with four 15" woofers subs are good idea. I used mine both with and without subs. If I were going to return to the Everests, subs would definitely be part of the plan.

FWIW: There are times when I miss those speakers!
Thank you for sharing your experience. If the everests do not dig very deep, I'm afraid then they might have to go out of the running. If I am forced to use subwoofers, then a whole world of possibilities opens up. A whole number of speakers do above 80 Hertz very well with lots of dynamics with good power and minimal distortion at high spl's (including my 4349s and all bigger jbls, the perlistens, all the klipsch horn speakers, ).
I have also considered that revel salon 2s. But they're very low sensitivity and Amir's comments on their relatively subdued dynamics gives me pause, although they should certainly dig deep enough.
Ideally, I would like to go without non manufacturer integrated subwoofers as I have subs on every other system I own, and I'd like to keep this stereo setup as clean as possible, for something different.
 

MKR

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@aliqaz Way over my budget, but if not, these would be on my short list …

 
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aliqaz

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By the way, I wish I could define better what I mean by high dynamics. But I believe the term hasn't actually been rigorously defined in the literature either. The best that I can come up with with my readings here in elsewhere is a speaker with a combination of high sensitivity and very low distortion at high spl's. These are the measurements I look to and when I am selecting for high dynamics. Generally a combination of this is primarily found in horn based designs such as the bigger jbls.

Combining this with my desire for something that is truly full range with lots of output without subwoofers, completely neutral tonality, narrow and controlled disperson and good industrial design and we can see that we have a tall order on our hands. Hence my turning to the community to help me find something.
 
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aliqaz

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@aliqaz Way over my budget, but if not, these would be on my short list …

I believe them. But the efficiency is low, there is no data on the distortion at high spls, no directivity graphs and there is no data on the frequency response. Do you know where I could get that data?
 

MKR

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By the way, I wish I could define better what I mean by high dynamics. But I believe the term hasn't actually been rigorously defined in the literature either. The best that I can come up with with my readings here in elsewhere is a speaker with a combination of high sensitivity and very low distortion at high spl's. These are the measurements I look to and when I am selecting for high dynamics. Generally a combination of this is primarily found in horn based designs such as the bigger jbls.

Combining this with my desire for something that is truly full range with lots of output without subwoofers, completely neutral tonality, narrow and controlled disperson and good industrial design and we can see that we have a tall order on our hands. Hence my turning to the community to help me find something.
We seem to be on the hunt for the exact same thing. Also had this same discussion on dynamics in my thread ;)
 

MKR

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I believe them. But the efficiency is low, there is no data on the distortion at high spls, no directivity graphs and there is no data on the frequency response. Do you know where I could get that data?
Send a message to Michael Kraske (designer) and ask him. Very nice fella, met him at AXPONA. And yes, efficiency is low, but if you can afford the speakers you can surely afford amplification that will do them justice.
 
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aliqaz

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Send a message to Michael Kraske (designer) and ask him. Very nice fella, met him at AXPONA. And yes, efficiency is low, but if you can afford the speakers you can surely afford amplification that will do them justice.
Yes, in fact amplification is not a cost concern at all. The hypex nc2k should provide all the power I need for (relative) peanuts. I read the discussion about this on your post. I think I just don't really get it. I think they are trying to do something cool and different with their line arrays. Above my pay grade. But they don't really publish any data. Their one review is from a very subjective piblication and their technical spec sheet is unhelpful. Fair enough, I think they're going quite strongly for the audiophile market that's not going to care too much about the data and they're relying on listening sessions of their very large speaker (which would be very impressive to almost any human who would hear it) But at 200k there should at least be a white paper for the consumer to peruse. Apart from this, in their ability to dig low and to have low sensitivity, they should be no different from a salon 2 from an objectivist perspective. And they don't really explain why they are different, apart from having a line array. So maybe I will email the designer and he should be able to provide me with some hard data, thanks so much for your suggestion.
 
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aliqaz

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We seem to be on the hunt for the exact same thing. Also had this same discussion on dynamics in my thread ;)
I think there might be one crucial difference in what we are looking for (correct me if I am wrong). The size of the room (approx 35000 cubic feet) and how far I am sitting (I measured, it's just over 20 ft). I find most modern speakers perfectly dynamic in smaller rooms, and a smaller number of speakers perfectly dynamic in medium to large rooms. If my bloody room was smaller, I would be happy with any number of modern well-designed speakers, haha. I think endgame is relative to how far you sit and how big the room is that needs to be energized.
 

dedobot

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Wait.. your "room" is 8m x 25m with a ceiling up to 9 meters ?! If so - funktion-one or similar :)
 

Purité Audio

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I think there might be one crucial difference in what we are looking for (correct me if I am wrong). The size of the room (approx 35000 cubic feet) and how far I am sitting (I measured, it's just over 20 ft). I find most modern speakers perfectly dynamic in smaller rooms, and a smaller number of speakers perfectly dynamic in medium to large rooms. If my bloody room was smaller, I would be happy with any number of modern well-designed speakers, haha. I think endgame is relative to how far you sit and how big the room is that needs to be energized.
I wouldn’t use the word energised,I also often hear ‘pressurised ‘, they have no meaning, every room depending upon construction will return a certain amount of bass at certain frequencies, the listening distance is important you need to listen as loudly as you wish without distortion.
Whatever speakers you decide upon you will need to acoustically measure with REW and you will almost certainly need some form of external EQ
unless the speakers have that built in.
You might have a look at REW’s ‘room simulation’ feature no microphone required just input your room’s dimensions and seating/loudspeaker positions.
Keith
 
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aliqaz

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Those are great woofers (obviously), but they don't dig real deep.

P
I wouldn’t use the word energised,I also often hear ‘pressurised ‘, they have no meaning, every room depending upon construction will return a certain amount of bass at certain frequencies, the listening distance is important you need to listen as loudly as you wish without distortion.
Whatever speakers you decide upon you will need to acoustically measure with REW and you will almost certainly need some form of external EQ
unless the speakers have that built in.
You might have a look at REW’s ‘room simulation’ feature no microphone required just input your room’s dimensions and seating/loudspeaker positions.
Keith
You are correct. Energized is a bit of a meaningless term obviously. What it was meaning to say was the sensation of quite low and tightly controlled bass. I absolutely intend to use Dirac under 500 hz as I use it, and other eq schemes, quite extensively with all my other systems.
 

FrantzM

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Hi @aliqaz

Few things. You may have the solution . You seem to like the Harman spekaers. You had the Revel F208, currently have the JBL4349... You do not seem to be adverse to subwoofers, you actually have the "room" for these... To quote you:
If I am forced to use subwoofers, then a whole world of possibilities opens up.
I view subwoofers are necessary in any system, regardless of the intrinsic low frequency capabilities of the mains. I am not sure, either that @amirm has qualified the Revel Salon 2 dynamics as "subdued". I could be wrong...
My humble suggestions:
4 Subwoofers with serious output. I personally have come to prefer ported subwoofers, so 4 x SVS-PB-4000. You would not lose much if you were to go sealed, SB-4000:
JBL 4367 or Revel Salon 2 (I, would go for the Salon 2).
miniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate the subwoofers.

A few weeks to tinker, measure, re-measure, re-tinker...

You could be in heaven with those.

Peace
 

FrankW

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I view subwoofers are necessary in any system, regardless of the intrinsic low frequency capabilities of the mains.
Some pros in the perceptual research field don't share your beliefs
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...than-digital-right.37657/page-19#post-1490035
https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270
https://www.stereophile.com/content/wheres-real-magazine-we-see-it-february-2001
https://web.archive.org/web/20180521025158/http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm
OPs mileage may vary. EQ will always be needed below transition, whatever that is for his rather large room. A picture of it would be interesting.
 

FrantzM

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Some pros in the perceptual research field don't share your beliefs
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...than-digital-right.37657/page-19#post-1490035
https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270
https://www.stereophile.com/content/wheres-real-magazine-we-see-it-february-2001
https://web.archive.org/web/20180521025158/http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm
OPs mileage may vary. EQ will always be needed below transition, whatever that is for his rather large room. A picture of it would be interesting.
And so many do:
Among these...
Floyd Toole
Earl Geddes

I share these people views. YMMV.

Peace.
 

Keith_W

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Box speakers are boring :) Why not try something a bit exotic?

acapella-hyperion-speaker-gray-horn-white-cabinet-9ae99555af2b405698bf340cf4380d0a-1014x1181-1.jpeg


Acapella Hyperion. Plasma tweeters and horns. They take a bit of work to get them sounding good though. But once you have them dialled in they sound like nothing else on earth. Nothing says "hyperspeaker" like horns.
 

FrantzM

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Cool. Now share the double blind listening evidence
Eminent people with the appropriate credentials, and knowledge, have already conducted their peer-reviewed studies. You may be able to infirm these studies. I can't , and have been happy using, multiple subwoofers.. again YMMV.
Here's one such paper, by Todd Welti and Alan Devantier of Harman, presented to the AES...

Low-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers*

Peace.
 
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sweetsounds

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Having read a bit around the ASR forums, I guess what I'm looking for are speakers that are fairly high sensitivity, a very low distortion at high SPL levels, that dig down really really deep, and probably narrow dispersion (even there's lots of wood in that room,
Best I heard in large rooms, amazing bass, high power and with a high sensitivity:
Estelon Extreme, 91dB sensitivity, down to 25Hz
von Schweikert Ultra 9, 92dB, down to 16Hz

Out of reach unfortunately for me.
 
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