Vinyl will always sound *different* than digital, right?

[DMill]

So that should be the end result of this thread. We can absolutely digitally record the audio of a vinyl recording and capture everything that is audible. Vinyl will not always sound different than digital.

Lol. We can preach but spinning vinyl goes way beyond what sounds good. Put your hands on a copy of your favorite artist with liner notes and lyrics on the album sleeve. All of a sudden the sound is good enough. And the tactile quality and fact that it makes you sit down and listen without bouncing around to your FB account… i do get why some still love their records.

 

[j_j]

So that should be the end result of this thread. We can absolutely digitally record the audio of a vinyl recording and capture everything that is audible. Vinyl will not always sound different than digital.

Hardest place to apply DSP in my opinion, mostly due to the required frequency resolution.

But then again, our professional systems are 5.0.0 7.0.0 and 7.0.4 No subs. Full range mains. There's a flaw in the 90 Hz idea. The experiment that was run years ago was 100% right, yes, you can not localize under 90Hz. You do, however, have substantial spatial sensation below 90Hz. So if you have one sub, it's going to sound "narrow" and "shallow" thanks to the physics of the situation vs. a good hall. Yep. Gotta use only below 40Hz to get that to work out.

 

[MattHooper]

So that should be the end result of this thread. We can absolutely digitally record the audio of a vinyl recording and capture everything that is audible. Vinyl will not always sound different than digital.

If you re-read the OP, the context is LP verses digital releases. There's not a lot of digital releases out there being made from LPs ;-)
(And pointing to the few the exist - e.g. bootlegs - would be missing the point of the OP's question anyway).

 

[levimax]

Hardest place to apply DSP in my opinion, mostly due to the required frequency resolution.

But then again, our professional systems are 5.0.0 7.0.0 and 7.0.4 No subs. Full range mains. There's a flaw in the 90 Hz idea. The experiment that was run years ago was 100% right, yes, you can not localize under 90Hz. You do, however, have substantial spatial sensation below 90Hz. So if you have one sub, it's going to sound "narrow" and "shallow" thanks to the physics of the situation vs. a good hall. Yep. Gotta use only below 40Hz to get that to work out.

Thanks for contributing to this thread. I have a couple of filter questions.

1. I decided to go analog active crossover for my subs, LR4 @ 80 Hz. I have read that digital and analog filters behave the same so does that mean that an analog RC filter @ 80 Hz has less precision than an RC filter at higher frequency?

2. Do 2 subs @ 80 Hz solve the "narrow" and "shallow" issue you mention for one sub?

3. I have been using the FR script developed by @JP to EQ my cart/TT using FIR filters. I have been using minimum phase filters because I read somewhere that cart non linearities are minimum phase. Is that correct or is it more complicated than that?

Thanks

 

[j_j]

Thanks for contributing to this thread. I have a couple of filter questions.

1. I decided to go analog active crossover for my subs, LR4 @ 80 Hz. I have read that digital and analog filters behave the same so does that mean that an analog RC filter @ 80 Hz has less precision than an RC filter at higher frequency?

Not necessarily, they may be more lossy than one at a higher frequency. The active crossover is the more reliable way to go about that. The idea that analog and digital filters work the same is, however, rather suspect. In analog filters, the result is always IIR, and there will be phase shift. (Well, except for very high-frequency filters used in some RF devices called "SAW" filters which you're not going to be using for subs.)

Digital filters can be IIR, but the impulse response will be different. This is neither good nor bad, it just is. It is also possible to make an FIR (finite impulse response) filter, in which case the filters can be pure time delay (no phase shift beyond time delay the same at all frequencies, i.e. phi = 2*pi*t*f where t is delay in seconds and f is in hertz, and phi is the time delay resulting from a constant delay). However, FIR filters with high frequency resolution (as are required with very low frequencies) require agonizingly long filters, and hence that is usually reserved for crossovers not in the sub-100Hz range for a variety of reasons. The problem with an IIR filter in digital form is that it trades off length (i.e. computational load) quite heavily for increased need for world length. Win some, lose some.

2. Do 2 subs @ 80 Hz solve the "narrow" and "shallow" issue you mention for one sub?

If each is fed by one channel, and they are located to either side, yes, to the extent that's possible with 2 channel signals. One of the effects of LP's is that out-of-phase rumble is usually the more common rumble mode, and this can also create a sensation of width.

3. I have been using the FR script developed by @JP to EQ my cart/TT using FIR filters. I have been using minimum phase filters because I read somewhere that cart non linearities are minimum phase. Is that correct or is it more complicated than that?

Thanks

A minimum phase inverse filter will correct both frequency response and phase shift of another minimum phase filter, so that is indeed probably a good choice. The problem comes if there is any non-minimum-phase contribution. This is where things like room correction and loudspeaker correction can get very complicated very fast.

 

[j_j]

If you re-read the OP, the context is LP verses digital releases. There's not a lot of digital releases out there being made from LPs ;-)
(And pointing to the few the exist - e.g. bootlegs - would be missing the point of the OP's question anyway).

Well, you can't squish flat an LP (in level terms) like you can a PCM stream, so some of the ultra-compressed stuff simply won't be on LP. EVER. That's because the recording (to LP master), pressing, and playback won't handle that kind of high-power,high-frequency signal.

 

[dorakeg]

So that should be the end result of this thread. We can absolutely digitally record the audio of a vinyl recording and capture everything that is audible. Vinyl will not always sound different than digital.

Hmm, I am not sure if this is possible (at least for now).

To be frank I don't have any experience with turntables, but what I read about turntable is that the phono cartridge has a big impact on the sound. There are different types of cartridges (eg. MC vs MM, recently learn that there is MI as well). The stylus tip shape matter as well.

The main thing I am pointing out is that measurement of phono cartridige is rather rare (found a thread below). Hence, it would be quite impossible to determine what is considered "reference" for a phono cartridge.

Objective measurements of phono cartridges

Carlo Lo Raso and Dr. David Rich have recently collaborated to develop protocols to measure phono cartridges. They're injecting the measurement signals from NOS test records, and analyzing the measurements using modern equipment. They published their first review last month, of a Shure M97xE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

IMHO, using laser scanning could potentially resolve the cartrdige issue. Perhaps increase in demand of vinyl could revive this technology.

 

[Bob from Florida]

IMHO, using laser scanning could potentially resolve the cartrdige issue. Perhaps increase in demand of vinyl could revive this technology.

Laser detection of the modulated grooves may not be able to ignore small dust particles like a stylus can. Another way to look at that question is if lasers had a practical application in playing back records it would be prevalent by now. By practical I mean economically feasible from a manufacturing and consumer cost.

 

[j_j]

Laser detection of the modulated grooves may not be able to ignore small dust particles like a stylus can. Another way to look at that question is if lasers had a practical application in playing back records it would be prevalent by now. By practical I mean economically feasible from a manufacturing and consumer cost.

The laser scanning indeed can not push away the dust particles, and as well has some trouble tracing the hf part that is stored more in vinyl density than it is stored in actual back and forth/up and down movement.

Most cartridges do, however, have a pretty consistent result for any given type. The trick is to having one measured.

 

[Newman]

the hf part that is stored more in vinyl density than it is stored in actual back and forth/up and down movement.

Please explain how you determined that this is factually true, with measurements, and how it is consistent with the properties of vinyl at such high frequencies.

 

[j_j]

Please explain how you determined that this is factually true, with measurements, and how it is consistent with the properties of vinyl at such high frequencies.

I suggest that you acquire the AES compendium on vinyl recording and playback. This is not a new understanding. I'm not going to retype the measurements of experts in the vinyl realm.

 

[JP]

The main thing I am pointing out is that measurement of phono cartridige is rather rare (found a thread below). Hence, it would be quite impossible to determine what is considered "reference" for a phono cartridge.

Plenty for FR in this thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mm-vs-mi-vs-mc.18636/

 

[MattHooper]

Quoted content deleted by Moderators as insulting and offensive.

Apparently your duty here is to make everyone feel similarly "welcome."

 

[Newman]

I wasn’t trying not to be nice, I was simply describing the amount of ‘illumination’ that the luminary claimant was willing to shed on the claim he made.

IMO a luminary is someone who shines light everywhere on a topic area, which is not consistent with pointing at a library (a paywalled library at that) when someone asks for more detail.

 

[j_j]

Quoted content deleted by Moderators as insulting and offensive.

I am curious as to what fact you don't regard as "logical", I must admit, but I'm not kindly disposed to people who simply demand that I go prove something somebody else has already done in peer reviewed publications.

 

[Mart68]

And how many digital releases have never been released on vinyl? I would expect it to be many times more than the opposite case. Possibly hundreds of times as many.

Yet you never hear of people saying they bought a digital rig specifically to listen to music never released on vinyl. It seems an absurd preoccupation or justification when looked at from the opposite direction.

have to say I did exactly that in the mid 1990s.

I'm a big Steely Dan fan and I wanted the new Becker solo album '11 Tracks Of Whack' (1994) which did not have a vinyl release.

I was fine with vinyl and did nor want to 'go digital' but I reluctantly bought a Sony CD player bin end for £100.

Over time I began to realise that CD did offer better sound quality.

 

[AdamG]

I wasn’t trying not to be nice, I was simply describing the amount of ‘illumination’ that the luminary claimant was willing to shed on the claim he made.

IMO a luminary is someone who shines light everywhere on a topic area, which is not consistent with pointing at a library (a paywalled library at that) when someone asks for more detail.

If you can’t find the words to ask your questions in a more respectful, dignified and compassionate manner then don’t ask. @j_j is a highly valued and respected Professional in the Audio world. We are fortunate to have him here as our guest. Tags like the ones he has are most certainly not given away. They require the personal investigation and validation by our Host Amir and they require proof of very high professional and academic credentials and achievements. Precious few of the “Audio Luminary” Tag have ever been granted. If this is still unclear for you then I suggest that you take a break and disengage before you regret your decision and prove beyond a doubt who the problem is here. You will not be warned again Sir.

Further reading: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sr-forum-member-tag-title-descriptions.38044/

 

[antcollinet]

and as well has some trouble tracing the hf part that is stored more in vinyl density than it is stored in actual back and forth/up and down movement.

That is fascinating. Does it imply that part of the high frequency is detected by the stylus under tracking weight microsopically compressing (presumably elastically) the vinyl different ammounts at different densities?

 

[BR52]

That is fascinating. Does it imply that part of the high frequency is detected by the stylus under tracking weight microsopically compressing (presumably elastically) the vinyl different ammounts at different densities?

For me, it's always fascinating how well mechanical data storage works, specially with its limitations here spring constants with variable density.......

 

[Jflijohn]

Well, you can't squish flat an LP (in level terms) like you can a PCM stream, so some of the ultra-compressed stuff simply won't be on LP. EVER. That's because the recording (to LP master), pressing, and playback won't handle that kind of high-power,high-frequency signal.

I’ve read books and papers written on vinyl mastering (wow, what an arduous process that is) as well as following the signal path from the cartridge through RIAA equalization and to the amp, I’m amazed that it even works as well as it does. There are just fewer places to screw up a digital signal and fewer constraints during the engineering of an album. I still love my vinyl though, even as flawed as it is. I’m about 80% digital and 20% vinyl. It always amazes me that every cartridge made, publicizes an entirely different sound signature. That's a great characteristic to have if you are trying to shape your music, not so great if you are looking for accuracy and fidelity to the source (the source being the artist).
I choose to spend my time correcting for the “low hanging fruit“ issues, my speakers and room acoustics. For me, at the end of the day, MY end game is accuracy (at my age, whether I can hear it or not is debatable).