Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[Nihon]

It also says this: "For example, a standard CD-player output voltage has emerged of around 2 VRMS, equivalent to +6 dBV. Such higher output levels allow the CD player to bypass a preamp stage."

Since digital input is by far the standard today for most of us, 2 volts unbalanced is the way to go. Even if you ignore that, you could run into amplifiers that you cannot drive to max power with less.

Thanks amirm and everyone.

Now I understand that amirm made the pre-out measurements at a relatively hight output RMS level of 2Vrms because it is a standard CD-player output voltage.

At this output RMS level, the difference between 3800H and 4800H comes from the high distortion spikes in 3800H.

The origin of such high distortion spikes is not well understood because 3800H and 4800H employ the same DAC.

Do I understand correctly?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

It also says this: "For example, a standard CD-player output voltage has emerged of around 2 VRMS, equivalent to +6 dBV. Such higher output levels allow the CD player to bypass a preamp stage."

Since digital input is by far the standard today for most of us, 2 volts unbalanced is the way to go. Even if you ignore that, you could run into amplifiers that you cannot drive to max power with less.

It would be great if you could also measure the pre outs until clipping in the future, just to see their capabilities, if it isn’t too much extra work. Thx.

 

[Brambo67]

Hi all- long time reader but first time poster

Picked up a 4800h. Wondered if anyone has an issue with Samsung qled TV in eARC mode and an Apple TV…

When Apple TV is outputting movie with Atmos audio (not Atmos DD+) and the Samsung TV is in “eARC” mode, with the 4800h connected to the eARC port, the sound goes in and out and the “Atmos” words on receiver go on off randomly with sound outage.

I’ve been using Star Wars - Force Awakens on AppleTV to test.

Pretty standard setup for going the eARC route.

Got a replacement 4800h and both do this. Swapped to my other AppleTV and swapped cables, but didn’t help.

When I use the Samsung TVs built in AppleTV app and watch same thing (outputting the same Atmos audio I presume) there is no issue.

Normal stereo, lpcm, and Dolby/DD+ all work from the AppleTV without issue.

I did not have this issue with my prior Denon 760h receiver (that I returned when I upgraded to this one).

Smart group here so wondered if anyone has similar experience and/or recommendations?

So from your post I understand you connect your Apple TV to your Samsung TV and play sound via eARC to your Denon 3800. This problem is well known but isn't covering your issue. However, I set up my Apple TV also via my 4700 to my LG OLED and saw the above problem. When connected directly to the TV and using eARC I was able to play Atmos fine. Since i wanted to be able to play Atmos music however via my Apple TV through my 4700 I opted for connecting the Apple TV with the 4700 resulting in the above problem.

Your problem could be because of Samsung related eARC issues. You could try connecting the Apple TV to the 3800 as the issue may have been resolved, otherwise indeed focus on Samsung to get it solved.

 

[Ruspamen]

I saw the measurements, how was the grounding problem solved? Thank you

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

…

The origin of such high distortion spikes is not well understood because 3800H and 4800H employ the same DAC.

Do I understand correctly?

They may not have the same DACs. Denon might have binned the chips (AKA cherry picking) and only used higher performing ones in 4800, and send lower ones to 3800 and 2800. It’s a common practice in CPU/GPU industry. That’s how third party manufacturers like Asus can have overclocked cards better than nVidia specs for 3090/4090.

 

[RF Air]

Good question! How about call them and ask the proper channel for such request for a "fix"?What is the purpose of the relay sound that clicks when I make changes on my Receiver? Is it normal to hear this sound? I have had other Denon Receivers that made the sound and also that did not make the sound. Is this normal, or do I need an update?

Denon Product Website Response for Relay Click:

What it the purpose of the relay sound that clicks when I make changes on my Receiver? Is it normal to hear this sound? I have had other Denon Receivers that made the sound and also that did not make the sound. Is this normal, or do I need an update?​

1answer

Answer this Question

1. Denon Response
   · 19 hours ago
   
   Hello.
   For the AVR-X4800H, this is normal. It is the sound of the receiver mechanically executing the command.
   
   

 

[Chrispy]

It also says this: "For example, a standard CD-player output voltage has emerged of around 2 VRMS, equivalent to +6 dBV. Such higher output levels allow the CD player to bypass a preamp stage."

Since digital input is by far the standard today for most of us, 2 volts unbalanced is the way to go. Even if you ignore that, you could run into amplifiers that you cannot drive to max power with less.

How many still use analog out on an optical disc player, tho? Who connects an optical disc player directly to an amp particularly even if using analog? I'd also like to see maximum pre-out levels due to some of those amps that need more....please ?

 

[Nihon]

How many still use analog out on an optical disc player, tho? Who connects an optical disc player directly to an amp particularly even if using analog? I'd also like to see maximum pre-out levels due to some of those amps that need more....please ?

I partially agree with you.
But, please note that amirm said in his review "a ton of time was involved in testing the unit so please, please don't ask for other measurements."
Moreover, an "appropriate level" depends on the gain of the power amplifier, efficiency of loudspeakers, size of the room, sources, and so on.
Then, what level is appropriate, you think?
# Since I am not a native speaker of English, I apologize if my writing does not sound polite enough.

 

[Chrispy]

I partially agree with you.
But, please note that amirm said in his review "a ton of time was involved in testing the unit so please, please don't ask for other measurements."
Moreover, an "appropriate level" depends on the gain of the power amplifier, efficiency of loudspeakers, size of the room, sources, and so on.
Then, what level is appropriate, you think?
# Since I am not a native speaker of English, I apologize if my writing does not sound polite enough.

I just would llike to see more extensive analysis of pre-out levels, if he doesn't have time I wouldn't blame him for not doing it. Just a wish. Appropriate level on an amp is more defined by its sensitivity spec in any case.

 

[peng]

Denon Product Website Response for Relay Click:

What it the purpose of the relay sound that clicks when I make changes on my Receiver? Is it normal to hear this sound? I have had other Denon Receivers that made the sound and also that did not make the sound. Is this normal, or do I need an update?​

1answer

Answer this Question

1. Denon Response
   · 19 hours ago
   
   Hello.
   For the AVR-X4800H, this is normal. It is the sound of the receiver mechanically executing the command.

Unfortunately that is not entirely unexpected, D+M customer support typically told us what we already know (like in this case, again..), to get the real answer we want we have to get to their second level, but that's hard to do. In the past, if I remember right, I only manage to get the 1st level to get an answer for me from their engineering (or second level, not really sure?). We all know relays click, the question is, why the 4800 clicks are louder and more often even. The 4700 also click but quieter.., etc..

If I had to guess, it would be because they are now using more electro-mechanical relays instead of IC switches, and the relays they picked happened to be louder. But guess is something we shouldn't have to do because customer support should have the answers for us.

 

[peng]

I just would llike to see more extensive analysis of pre-out levels, if he doesn't have time I wouldn't blame him for not doing it. Just a wish. Appropriate level on an amp is more defined by its sensitivity spec in any case.

Amir has done it in the pass, well passed 4 V:

So clearly it is a matter of how much time he could afford to put into such tests. If more people make the request, there is a good chance he would do it to the clipping point in the future. Without such test on the result, we can take an educated guest. My educated test is that the 3800/3800 pre out will not clip until it reaches > 4V, say at least 3.5 V, conservatively. That just my guess, I have been wrong before but in this case my confidence level is at least 90%, because as far as I know the hardware involved has not changed except the TI vs AKM DAC parts, but the pre out voltage specs of those DACs are practically the same.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Amir has done it in the pass, well passed 4 V:

So clearly it is a matter of how much time he could afford to put into such tests. If more people make the request, there is a good chance he would do it to the clipping point in the future. Without such test on the result, we can take an educated guest. My educated test is that the 3800/3800 pre out will not clip until it reaches > 4V, say at least 3.5 V, conservatively. That just my guess, I have been wrong before but in this case my confidence level is at least 90%, because as far as I know the hardware involved has not changed except the TI vs AKM DAC parts, but the pre out voltage specs of those DACs are practically the same.

Correct. And I would expect it is no extra effort to let the AP run until eg 4 V instead of 2 V - I might be wrong though. Amir has to comment.

 

[enricoclaudio]

Unfortunately that is not entirely unexpected, D+M customer support typically told us what we already know (like in this case, again..), to get the real answer we want we have to get to their second level, but that's hard to do. In the past, if I remember right, I only manage to get the 1st level to get an answer for me from their engineering (or second level, not really sure?). We all know relays click, the question is, why the 4800 clicks are louder and more often even. The 4700 also click but quieter.., etc..

If I had to guess, it would be because they are now using more electro-mechanical relays instead of IC switches, and the relays they picked happened to be louder. But guess is something we shouldn't have to do because customer support should have the answers for us.

For me the problem is not how loud the click is, the problem is that it's happening when transitioning from Multichannel IN to any other upmixer that uses Height Speakers which was not the case with the X4700H. I'm convinced that this is firmware bug because it does not happen when going from DD 5.1 to AURO 3D or to DD + DSurr. Only happens with Multichannel IN (5.1 PCM) to AURO 3D, DD + DSurr or any other up mixer that uses Height Speakers.

 

[peng]

Correct. And I would expect it is no extra effort to let the AP run until eg 4 V instead of 2 V - I might be wrong though. Amir has to comment.

He commented already though, at least twice:

Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

The SHARC ADSP-21593 in the X3800H/X4800H/AH1 should be more than enough to handle Dirac ART. https://www.analog.com/en/products/adsp-21593.html

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

How many voters in this poll actually have a X4800H? Just wondering where these votes are coming from in the poll?

www.audiosciencereview.com

We don't have to agree with him, and we can ask, but he has the final say.

At least he did say:

"I don't think it is right to push devices with RCA out at higher than 2 volts. Seeing how the amp is off though I suspect it will keep going."

So his guess is probably similar to ours, then it would go higher, much higher...

 

[peng]

For me the problem is not how loud the click is, the problem is that it's happening when transitioning from Multichannel IN to any other upmixer that uses Height Speakers which was not the case with the X4700H. I'm convinced that this is firmware bug because it does not happen when going from DD 5.1 to AURO 3D or to DD + DSurr. Only happens with Multichannel IN (5.1 PCM) to AURO 3D, DD + DSurr or any other up mixer that uses Height Speakers.

Now that you provided a specific condition, I would say this could still be one of those "normal", not a bug. The height channels are assignable, so whenever you switch modes that require rearranging the speaker configurations there will be switching and they might have changed the type of relays used on the 4700 to a stronger, louder ones for better reliability. Again, hate to guess, but..

 

[Chrispy]

@enricoclaudio do you get this switching relay noise during a particular show/program or in-between or ?

 

[enricoclaudio]

@enricoclaudio do you get this switching relay noise during a particular show/program or in-between or ?

I only get this relay clicking noise when changing channels on my Xfinity X1 DVR Box and audio is set to Expert mode in the DVR Box. If audio is set to Dolby Digital, I don't get the relay clicking noise. Expert audio mode scans first the receiver to see the capabilities and for that it sends first PCM Multichannel signal and that's what cause the Denon X4800H to trigger the relays. Also happens with my Apple TV 4K when it goes from main menu (Multichannel PCM audio) to any movie with Dolby ATMOS audio. So it's definitely an issue with Multichannel PCM audio.

 

[enricoclaudio]

Looks like the New UI and Dirac updates are coming tomorrow via firmware update

U 30 Software Update für Denon und Marantz Receivern steht in den Startlöchern

Am 15. März 2023 wird voraussichtlich die neue Software für eine Vielzahl von Denon und Marantz Receivern veröffentlicht. Es handelt sich…

www.grobi.tv

 

[lewdish]

That new Pioneer VSX-LX805 is going to need to fight for its life esp since theyre no longer doing Class D. Denon's packages are still HUGE value both in performance metrics and features. Tho the new Sony ES Flagship lineup is looking very enticing and their spatial processing seems to be plug and play and far more effective than even Dirac. Looking forward to seeing if someone would be willing to send one of those in. Honestly if I were to rec to people AVRs right now it would be the Sony's just for the fact that they are dead simple to setup and no need to tinker w/ all the hours of Dirac measurements and setup.

 

[enricoclaudio]

After 2 frustrating years owning an Emotiva XMC-1 with Dirac but with so many reliability and firmware issues on the XMC-1, I said back in 2019 that I would go back to Dirac the day Denon/Marantz offered Dirac Live in their receivers. I was called by many names because everybody said that was going to be impossible. Well, now we know it was not impossible and even better, we get 2 great room correction systems in 1 box something that NOBODY have had never offered so far. You get a Denon X3800H/X4800H and you get Audyssey for free and the option to also get Dirac Live for a fee and both REQs systems can coexist inside your receiver and you can switch between them on the fly. Honestly, can't get any better than this....