Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

[hmt]

@Chromatischism @dlaloum

I explain filterability of systems more in detail in this post:

Room Treatments in the Real World

But having played in a wind ensemble and attended lots of concerts the concert halls aren't over dampened, usually they have some dampening combined with reflection panels. Those are diffusers, especially those with multiple various height surfaces. ...Which are usually a feature of concert...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Nice findings I would think that at least dirac or trinnov will try to figure out what should be corrected and what doesn’t. Trinnov even gives you info about direct sound and reflections and has a parameter for the amount of reflections to by considered (cycles).

 

[Chromatischism]

If you have a non-EQ-able area at 150Hz, don't systems like Audyssey/Dirac know to avoid ineffective EQ in that area without disabling any EQ above that frequency?

In the case of Audyssey, it will not attempt to boost a severe cancellation.

 

[DerRoland]

Masimo publish a new webinar video about the new receiver line:

Join Oliver Kriete, Product Manager Europe and the global Sound United Training team for a technical introduction of the brand new Denon AVC-X4800H. In this session we're walking you through all the new and upcoming extended capabilities.

 

[peng]

Masimo publish a new webinar video about the new receiver line:

So now we know the $20 App can be used to dial in 4 subwoofers! He doesn't have measurements to show for the AVR-X4800H but will have in for the A1H in two weeks (from the date this video was shown I assume..).

 

[chych7]

Oh interesting, you can have "directional" bass now (16:30), haven't heard about that functionality. But bass below 100 Hz is pretty omnidirectional, so I wonder how useful that is.

$800 for a full Dirac upgrade is quite a bit.

 

[bob5200]

Full pricing chart.

 

[techsamurai]

Full pricing chart.
View attachment 261598

I'm not sure I understand this - if I have a 5.1 system, does full bandwidth not take care of the subwoofer? It says 20hz-20khz and I have the SVS3000 Micro and I don't care about anything under 20hz (if the sub gets there through room gain, then yippee!)

Is the bass control for 1 or more subs that drop under 20hz?

 

[chych7]

I'm not sure I understand this - if I have a 5.1 system, does full bandwidth not take care of the subwoofer? It says 20hz-20khz and I have the SVS3000 Micro and I don't care about anything under 20hz (if the sub gets there through room gain, then yippee!)

Is the bass control for 1 or more subs that drop under 20hz?

Full bandwidth should still work, but it would treat the sub as a continuation of the speaker. DLBC would also ensure phase coherency across multiple speakers (with its "all pass" crossover) to get better integration. Probably more worth it with multiple subs.

 

[dlaloum]

Full bandwidth should still work, but it would treat the sub as a continuation of the speaker. DLBC would also ensure phase coherency across multiple speakers (with its "all pass" crossover) to get better integration. Probably more worth it with multiple subs.

I believe DLBC also does a bit more fancy stuff in integrating full range speakers with subs....

While Dirac Live does a simpler "crossover" approach, and doesn't try to get fancy with directing Bass signal around between speakers and subs.

Hence DLBC single sub, still has value - primarily if you have full range speakers in your setup.

So YES - DL integrates the Sub - but at a basic level, and does not mess with the bass steering provided by the decoder/mixer

DLBC - provides more sophisticated integration between full range and subs allowing leverage of full system capabilities and can direct bass trafic from/to mains and sub(s) - in the multi sub version it can also adjust the multiple subs to better integrate them into the room.

DL-ART will take it further, and allows each Sub or full range speaker to also act as a "corrector" to cancel out flaws in the room (as per active noise cancelling systems)

 

[multisport4me]

I believe DLBC also does a bit more fancy stuff in integrating full range speakers with subs....

While Dirac Live does a simpler "crossover" approach, and doesn't try to get fancy with directing Bass signal around between speakers and subs.

Hence DLBC single sub, still has value - primarily if you have full range speakers in your setup.

So YES - DL integrates the Sub - but at a basic level, and does not mess with the bass steering provided by the decoder/mixer

DLBC - provides more sophisticated integration between full range and subs allowing leverage of full system capabilities and can direct bass trafic from/to mains and sub(s) - in the multi sub version it can also adjust the multiple subs to better integrate them into the room.

DL-ART will take it further, and allows each Sub or full range speaker to also act as a "corrector" to cancel out flaws in the room (as per active noise cancelling systems)

It does. DLBC works very well. I miss it already and is really my only gripe about the AV10 (which I love)....I have to wait 1.5-2 years before we'll see DLBC. FIngers crossed they deliver it early as a nice surprise.

There is a video of an Sound United rep being asked about ART and was totally non-commital. I think we need to set our expectations lower here as its possible ART may not be supported on these models. As we know, Storm has exclusivity this year so I suppose its possible SU can't even test it yet and won't until they get DLBC up and running first.

 

[dlaloum]

It does. DLBC works very well. I miss it already and is really my only gripe about the AV10 (which I love)....I have to wait 1.5-2 years before we'll see DLBC. FIngers crossed they deliver it early as a nice surprise.

There is a video of an Sound United rep being asked about ART and was totally non-commital. I think we need to set our expectations lower here as its possible ART may not be supported on these models. As we know, Storm has exclusivity this year so I suppose its possible SU can't even test it yet and won't until they get DLBC up and running first.

For those with X3800's the step up in total cost, of purchasing DLBC (or ART ?) - takes the whole AVR up to a different price category....

It makes perfect sense for the Flagship model(s?) - where the Dirac licences are a smaller proportion of the total cost.

But a year or 2 ago, the X3700 was around US$1200 I believe... (now substantially more @ US$1700 ) - the addition of a full multisub DLBC licence would be circa $800... taking the AVR price from $1700 to US$2500 - that is a big step up.

DL on its own would be very difficult to justify, given DL and Audyssey have very similar capabilities and Audyssey is already included.

DLBC.... yes it brings added value, but is it enough value for most of us? (who may already be stretching budgets for the base US$1700 !)

DL-ART being a complete paradigm shift to the table - it may be able to justify the additional $$ in a way that DLBC cannot...

It will be interesting to see Masimo's strategy going forward - especially if Onkyo extends its offerings into the DLBC / ART space /Pricerange

 

[ban25]

For those with X3800's the step up in total cost, of purchasing DLBC (or ART ?) - takes the whole AVR up to a different price category....

It makes perfect sense for the Flagship model(s?) - where the Dirac licences are a smaller proportion of the total cost.

But a year or 2 ago, the X3700 was around US$1200 I believe... (now substantially more @ US$1700 ) - the addition of a full multisub DLBC licence would be circa $800... taking the AVR price from $1700 to US$2500 - that is a big step up.

DL on its own would be very difficult to justify, given DL and Audyssey have very similar capabilities and Audyssey is already included.

DLBC.... yes it brings added value, but is it enough value for most of us? (who may already be stretching budgets for the base US$1700 !)

DL-ART being a complete paradigm shift to the table - it may be able to justify the additional $$ in a way that DLBC cannot...

It will be interesting to see Masimo's strategy going forward - especially if Onkyo extends its offerings into the DLBC / ART space /Pricerange

FWIW, when I purchased my X3700H a year ago almost exactly, it was already $1700 + tax. I'd have to check but the prices probably took off post AKM fire in 2021.

 

[techsamurai]

FWIW, when I purchased my X3700H a year ago almost exactly, it was already $1700 + tax. I'd have to check but the prices probably took off post AKM fire in 2021.

What HiFi lists the price at 1,000 pounds, $1,200.

Denon AVC-X3700H review

What Hi-Fi? Awards 2021 winner. Denon raises the bar again for what is achievable for less than a grand

www.whathifi.com

 

[ban25]

What HiFi lists the price at 1,000 pounds, $1,200.

Denon AVC-X3700H review

What Hi-Fi? Awards 2021 winner. Denon raises the bar again for what is achievable for less than a grand

www.whathifi.com

This review from December 2021 lists the price as $1499:

Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K AV receiver review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The Denon AVR-X3700H home theater receiver is a high-value mid-range centerpiece for your home theater setup. With...

hometheaterhifi.com

The original Audioholics review from June 2020 reports a list price of $1,199:

Denon X-Series Introduces the World's First 8K-Ready AV Receivers

Denon released information on their new X-Series A/V Receivers. With the industry's first 8K ready receivers, Denon is raising the bar for what we're going to expect from new receivers this year.

www.audioholics.com

 

[techsamurai]

For those with X3800's the step up in total cost, of purchasing DLBC (or ART ?) - takes the whole AVR up to a different price category....

It makes perfect sense for the Flagship model(s?) - where the Dirac licences are a smaller proportion of the total cost.

But a year or 2 ago, the X3700 was around US$1200 I believe... (now substantially more @ US$1700 ) - the addition of a full multisub DLBC licence would be circa $800... taking the AVR price from $1700 to US$2500 - that is a big step up.

DL on its own would be very difficult to justify, given DL and Audyssey have very similar capabilities and Audyssey is already included.

DLBC.... yes it brings added value, but is it enough value for most of us? (who may already be stretching budgets for the base US$1700 !)

DL-ART being a complete paradigm shift to the table - it may be able to justify the additional $$ in a way that DLBC cannot...

It will be interesting to see Masimo's strategy going forward - especially if Onkyo extends its offerings into the DLBC / ART space /Pricerange

Absolutely and look at the newly announced Sony AZ5000ES. 43lbs, $2,200. Does anyone know how much power the Denon 6700h delivers into 5-7 channels continuous at 0.1% THD? It costs $3,300 so it better not deliver the same power or less than the 5000ES.

I hope the 5000 is a top-of-the-line AVR because that's the correct price point.

If the new 5000ES is as powerful as the old one, we're looking at 105 watts into 7 channels which is Marantz SR8015 territory so bye, bye Cinema 40 and Cinema 50. Even the Cinema 60 may struggle against the equally priced Sony 3000 that weighs 50% more. They also have 5 year warranties like Denon and Marantz used to.

 

[techsamurai]

This review from December 2021 lists the price as $1499:

Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K AV receiver review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The Denon AVR-X3700H home theater receiver is a high-value mid-range centerpiece for your home theater setup. With...

hometheaterhifi.com

The original Audioholics review from June 2020 reports a list price of $1,199:

Denon X-Series Introduces the World's First 8K-Ready AV Receivers

Denon released information on their new X-Series A/V Receivers. With the industry's first 8K ready receivers, Denon is raising the bar for what we're going to expect from new receivers this year.

www.audioholics.com

Yeah, both Denon and Marantz have been horrible in their triple price hikes which affected the US market a lot more, if not exclusively.

 

[ban25]

Absolutely and look at the newly announced Sony AZ5000ES. 43lbs, $2,200. Does anyone know how much power the Denon 6700h delivers into 5-7 channels continuous at 0.1% THD? It costs $3,300 so it better not deliver the same power or less than the 5000ES.

I hope the 5000 is a top-of-the-line AVR because that's the correct price point.

If the new 5000ES is as powerful as the old one, we're looking at 105 watts into 7 channels which is Marantz SR8015 territory so bye, bye Cinema 40 and Cinema 50. Even the Cinema 60 may struggle against the equally priced Sony 3000 that weighs 50% more. They also have 5 year warranties like Denon and Marantz used to.

Sony states the following for the AZ5000ES:

Sony STR-AZ5000ES 11.2 Channel 8K A/V Receiver with Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and 360 Reality Audio

Elevate your home theater standards with Sony’s STR-AZ5000ES first 11.2 CH 8K A/V Receiver featuring renowned ES quality. Designed for integrators with optimized configurability, flexible connectivity, and advanced IP control for leading control systems. The STR-AZ5000ES is the total package for...

electronics.sony.com

130W + 130W 8ohms, 1kHz, 2ch, THD 0.9%

Whereas, Denon states the following for the X6700H:

AVR-X6700H

Denon

www.denon.com

140 watts per channel (8 Ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, THD: 0.05%, 2 ch. driven)

And the current gen X4800H reports:

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)

125W

Honestly, it's no contest if these specs are accurate. Sony is doing themselves no favors quoting performance at 0.9% THD, 1 kHz only...

 

[techsamurai]

Sony states the following for the AZ5000ES:

Sony STR-AZ5000ES 11.2 Channel 8K A/V Receiver with Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and 360 Reality Audio

Elevate your home theater standards with Sony’s STR-AZ5000ES first 11.2 CH 8K A/V Receiver featuring renowned ES quality. Designed for integrators with optimized configurability, flexible connectivity, and advanced IP control for leading control systems. The STR-AZ5000ES is the total package for...

electronics.sony.com

130W + 130W 8ohms, 1kHz, 2ch, THD 0.9%

Whereas, Denon states the following for the X6700H:

AVR-X6700H

Denon

www.denon.com

140 watts per channel (8 Ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, THD: 0.05%, 2 ch. driven)

And the current gen X4800H reports:

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)

125W

Honestly, it's no contest if these specs are accurate. Sony is doing themselves no favors quoting performance at 0.9% THD, 1 kHz only...

You mean no contest in favor of the Sony or the Denons?

Here's the old Sony 5000 vs the Denon 4200

Sony STR-ZA5000 ES A/V Receiver Review Test Bench

Test Bench Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 139.3 watts 1% distortion at 175.3 watts Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 103.6 watts 1% distortion at 135.1 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1%...

www.soundandvision.com

Denon AVR-X4200W A/V Receiver Review Test Bench

Test Bench 0.1% THD 1.0% THD Two Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads 124.3 watts 149.2 watts Two Channels Continuously Driven, 4-Ohm Loads 215.9 watts 239.7 watts Five Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads 94.6 watts 118.0 watts Seven Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads 76.8...

www.soundandvision.com

Sony 5000
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 103.6 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 102.1 watts

Denon 4200
Five Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads:
0.1% distortion at 94.6 watts

Seven Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads
0.1% distortion at 76.8 watts

That's why I feel that the 6700h may lose - most Denons and Marantz AVRs seem to drop at 7 channels except for the Marantz 8015 and Denon 7200/8500 which drop less.

Here's the saddest part - check out the $800 Marantz SR5003's numbers:

Marantz SR5003 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 103.8 watts 1% distortion at 118.0 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 88.2 watts 1% distortion at 99.9 watts Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode: –0.50 dB...

www.soundandvision.com

It beats the 7000 series and probably the Cinema 40.

 

[DerRoland]

Member broncogr on avsforum.com posted a bunch of tech slides, source is todays AVC-A1H webinar, see here:

avsforum.com: the-official-2023-denon-avr-avc-a1h-15-4ch-flagship-avr-owners-thread

He also posted yesterday a link to a deep dive into the new flagships AVC-A1H, AV10 and AMP10, see here:

hometheaterhifi.com denon-av-h1-home-theater-receiver-and-marantz-av10-and-amp10-home-theater-separates-a-deep-dive

@broncogr: many thanks for your first sight infos as always .

 

[peng]

So the flagship AVR gains 2 fans (from 4 to 6), and 8 lbs transformer weight, and 50% more PS block capacitors! That, along with a second/or third, from the top of ESS Sabre's DAC IC, and XLR subwoofer outputs that can be re-assigned for use with the LCR channels. This could be a one box solution that can compete with separate AVC/Poweramp in terms of performance, not just convenience. Denon might actually be able to justify the price increase over the AVR-X8500HA based on the info provided on that webinar.