Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Robbo99999]

Do you have the rest of that article?

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-UK/Technology/Technology-All-Eras/Archive-Wireless-World-IDX/80s/Wireless-World-1981-02-OCR-Page-0020.pdf

(change the page number from a 19 to a 20 in the internet address, you can type in other numbers too)

EDIT: ah, you found another way of doing it.

 

[GalZohar]

EDIT: actually mi biggest issue with Denon and Audyssey was always the fact, that I could get EITHER L&R in phase with subs or C, but never both at once. So I ended wirth broad hole around X over frequency for C. And this is something you definitely can hear.

Can you explain/demonstrate how another EQ system managed to do better? Other than DLBC (which may or may not do better here), other EQ systems such as Arc and basic Dirac supposedly would have the same issue.

 

[napfkuchen]

If you're comparing the x3700H refurb at $1,200 vs. the $1,700 price for a new x3800H - this is ridiculous, as the x3800H doesn't have refurbs on the market as of yet. How about we wait until the x3800H refurbs hit the shelves at accessories4Less before complaining about this price differences. Jeez...

Guess it all depends if you intend on using the new features at some point in time or just have to get the newest sh*t.
I was really underwhelmed by the review and bought a (like new) X3700H which had only been in use for a month for 1050 Euro. The price difference will be "invested" in a TV upgrade from 55" LED to 65" OLED.

 

[thorn]

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-UK/Technology/Technology-All-Eras/Archive-Wireless-World-IDX/80s/Wireless-World-1981-02-OCR-Page-0020.pdf

(change the page number from a 19 to a 20 in the internet address, you can type in other numbers too)

EDIT: ah, you found another way of doing it.

Here's all of them:

Index of /UK/Wireless-World/80s

 

[amirm]

You can't hear the difference, but you're considering exchanging it because of test results that don't affect you?

If he is buying this unit due to my test results of previous generation, that decision seems fair and balanced. As I explained at the outset, great measurements have been part and parcel of my recommendation and purchasing of the same by members. You can't blame them now to make a different decision with that value prop going away. This, on top of you not knowing if it does or does not affect him. You are guessing.

 

[Bren Derlin]

If he is buying this unit due to my test results of previous generation, that decision seems fair and balanced. As I explained at the outset, great measurements have been part and parcel of my recommendation and purchasing of the same by members. You can't blame them now to make a different decision with that value prop going away. This, on top of you not knowing if it does or does not affect him. You are guessing.

This was his comment...

If you see my other posts it is likely I will not be able to differentiate due to some hearing loss.

If I can get a 3700H or an open box 4700H I may return it as a result of Amir’s testing.

 

[Bren Derlin]

Guess it all depends if you intend on using the new features at some point in time or just have to get the newest sh*t.
I was really underwhelmed by the review and bought a (like new) X3700H which had only been in use for a month for 1050 Euro. The price difference will be "invested" in a TV upgrade from 55" LED to 65" OLED.

Totally understand that. I wouldn't be using those new x3800H features, so for me I fall in the "moot" point. I'd go with a refurb x3700H right now. OR...maybe even an x2700H.

If I was itching to use 4 subs, or had an 8K TV with several 8K devices.... I'd be all over the x3800H.

 

[peng]

Do you have the rest of that article?

I couldn't find it, lucky enough to find those two pages published from 41 years ago.

 

[ItSoundsNatural01]

Looks like the Denon engineering team is making a statement, the performance of the unit was on a downward trend from 3600H->3700H->3800H, it seems like Denon is saying; you keep measuring but we don't care, this is our cash cow, and as long as we keep upgrading with features and customers keep buying ... these measurements doest impact the sales of these units .. we gonna be sticking to our mantra...

 

[Fidji]

Can you explain/demonstrate how another EQ system managed to do better? Other than DLBC (which may or may not do better here), other EQ systems such as Arc and basic Dirac supposedly would have the same issue.

Trinnov Room Optimizer with its focus on Phase/Group Delay correction, measurement technique and it’s various Bass Management and really advanced settings options can do it effortlessly. Of course it also includes “need to know, what you’re doing” part and REW exercise to confirm and validate the results.

Having 5 subs and ability to place them where I need to, also does not hurt here.

Also I suspect wrong ms to meters calculation included in every D&M device might be one cause of it. But even PC app was not able to correct it in my case. Repeatability of measurements with Audyssey mic was also quite poor, including some false “wrong polarity” warnings. I have developed pretty robust measurement and calibration routine with Audyssey and I was getting delay, trim and crossover readings all over the place.

EDIT: I am not saying it is impossible to get Audyssey to produce excellent results. It was just not possible for me. But my setup is pretty exotic and quite complex (starting with 5 speakers being electrosts)

 

[peng]

And I hate to keep harping on it, but AKM had a fire in October of 2020 that stopped all production of the DAC used in the X3700H, but using a little math, it seems unlikely that a X3700H produced since early-mid 2021 performs any better than the X3800H.

I.E.
AKM DAC: 104 dB spec - 98 dB measured; difference = 6dB.
TI DAC: 93dB spec - 87 dB measured; difference = 6dB.

I see no way to infer any notable engineering issues doing a simple comparison, so we can assume the X3700H sold for the past 14 months or more performed essentially the same as the X3800H. Testing of the X4800H will confirm if the design is truly limited by the new DAC as it appears or whether there's still some engineering "hygiene" that can be improved. But buying an X3700H assuming better performance is a nothing more than a roll of the dice.

Haha, I had the same question, I was reading intently, and then "hey, where's the next page". Lol.

Agreed, I don't understand why some people are still wondering if it is a hardware limited case when it obviously is. According to D+M, the changes started in the spring of 2020. I thought a poster (don't remember) started referring to the two 3700 versions as something like 3700AKM and 3700PCM, sounds funny but it does help avoid readers getting confused.

Again, please note that the AKM chip's SINAD is 107 dB for fs = 44.1 kHz that Amir used for his dash board test results, minor details... For normal use, I do agree the 104 dB with fs >= 48 kHz is more appropriate.

 

[thorn]

I couldn't find it, lucky enough to find those two pages published from 41 years ago.

Entire issues:

Index of /UK/Wireless-World/80s

The month with the article:

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/80s/Wireless-World-1981-02.pdf

 

[Narnian]

This was his comment...

If you see my other posts it is likely I will not be able to differentiate due to some hearing loss.

If I can get a 3700H or an open box 4700H I may return it as a result of Amir’s testing.

A key word is “likely”

When I get my high SINAD external DAC in I will do some AB listening tests for my own.

However I am a bad test subject because I do have documented hearing loss so my testing is only valid for me.

If I had the hearing I had when I was 10 and tested exceptional who knows what I could hear.

 

[voodooless]

However I am a bad test subject because I do have documented hearing loss so my testing is only valid for me.

Don’t worry, there are all kinds of old geezer audiophiles that must have very bad hearing, but have veils lifted on a daily basis. You can do it! Just have a little faith

 

[peng]

Entire issues:

Index of /UK/Wireless-World/80s

The month with the article:

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/80s/Wireless-World-1981-02.pdf

Thank you very much.

 

[oivavoi]

Found the full issue:
https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/80s/Wireless-World-1981-02.pdf
(The missing last page of the article is on page 20 of this pdf.)

Quotes:


Those correspond to -48 dB and -58 dB respectively (rounding the latter down to 0.1% would be -60 dB).

Thanks a lot, very interesting article!

 

[squared80]

Can't wait to see the A1H review next year.

 

[DMill]

if you replace your AVR every three years the 3800 is probably fine. Thank you Denon for opening the door for someone to make an AVR that actually kicks ass. Yamaha, Marantz or anyone else, are you listening?

 

[dlaloum]

if you replace your AVR every three years the 3800 is probably fine. Thank you Denon for opening the door for someone to make an AVR that actually kicks ass. Yamaha, Marantz or anyone else, are you listening?

Well Marantz is Denon with bells on....(and perhaps some lipstick)

Realistically the competition is Onkyo, Yamaha and Anthem - although the Flagship models (Both D & M) will also go up against JBL, Storm, Lyngdorf

 

[Bren Derlin]

Well Marantz is Denon with bells on....(and perhaps some lipstick)

Realistically the competition is Onkyo, Yamaha and Anthem - although the Flagship models (Both D & M) will also go up against JBL, Storm, Lyngdorf

I thought the image and sound processing was different between Denon and Marantz.