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Analysis of Paper on Measurements of RCA Cables by Kunchur (Video)

Blumlein 88

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Fair enough. And yet, certain people get stuff published that others could never. I can’t believe reputation does not play a role. Would I have offered the same paper to the AES as the astrophysicist, I bet you it would not have been accepted.
I can believe reputation and connections or other relationships have a bearing on whether or not a paper gets sent for peer review. And I don't know how the JAES does it, maybe someone can tell us some of the details. I'd hope once sent for review the reputation wouldn't be a part of it.
 

Endibol

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it seems there are many people who claim again and again they can hear absolutely without a shadow of a doubt audible differences between cables (all types, shapes, and colours). they claim if measurements do not show differences between cables then those are the wrong measurements, if measurements do show differences then aha! you see conclusive evidence that there are measurements we can see feel and hear. Yet, I have never seen one person do a proper audible test to prove that the claimant can hear a difference of any kind, be it a subtle difference or A LOUD difference, still a difference that can be proven time again and again. Why hasn't Doc Kunchur do such a test, Jay? or anyone else who keeps claiming left and right "yes, I have heard many times all kinds of audible differences, big small and sometimes big and small at the same time, but I can't demonstrate such differences because I hear my mom calling me for dinner, but trust me Jimbo, those differences are real, y'all". Well? ah the sound of crickets.
Yes, a nice example again of the difference between science and pseudoscience:
- The scientist constantly seeks for facts that contradict his theory, enabling him to construct a theory also accounting for the new facts.
- The pseudoscientist constantly seeks for facts that support his theory, ignoring those that don't..
 

Blumlein 88

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This is from the AES org page. Which apparently anyone can submit a paper too and if it meets criteria for form it will be reviewed by 2 or more people.

Peer Review

Manuscripts submitted to the Journal of the AES for publication are reviewed anonymously by members of the review board. A complete manuscript is evaluated by at least two reviewers who are competent to assess the material. After the reviewers’ analysis and recommendation to the editors, the author is advised of either acceptance or rejection. On the basis of the reviewers’ comments, the editor may request that the author make certain revisions which will allow the paper to be accepted for publication.
 

Cars-N-Cans

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"...there is a whole group of people out there who believe that only loudspeakers make a sonic difference."

Probably the only real kernel of truth in any of his statements with respect to the actual sound reproduction equipment itself. But if the subjectivists have their way and make more "euphonic" gear and cables, then we will have to once again worry about that, too. And not just bad measurements, but stuff that literally sounds bad.
 

voodooless

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This is a sad video on the subject because it is so pitifully reasoned to the point of near incoherence in terms of going from point A to point B of a chain of reasoning.

There is a whole topic about it:

 

Cars-N-Cans

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There is a whole topic about it:

He's really racking up his frequent scammer miles here at ASR, evidently...

Edit: After reading a bit more it seems he probably is honest. But clearly he needs to actually consult his colleagues who are in fields related to his interests before venturing further in audio. When you are literally so wrong that people start questioning your motives, its time to take a step back.
 
Last edited:

Cars-N-Cans

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If that were true, it would be a horrible insult to both his intelligence and scientific abilities.
In academia and research its amazing how myopic people can potentially get. A random example was when I was an undergrad taking mechanical engineering courses, I had a tenured professor publicly call me an "idiot" after an exam for pointing out that his method of calculating the drag coeffect of a typical passenger car was potentially in error as the "correct" answer on the exam was a Cd of 0.8 rather than the more typical Cd of 0.35. I think even Hummers are more aerodynamic than that. And he concluded that such a low drag coefficient for cars was completely absurd! And by his model (and for certain types of open-wheel cars) the number it gave was correct. A classic case of circular logic. But, at no point did he decide to do some simple research to see what some ballpark values were before formulating it and making it an exam question in a mechanical engineering course that people have to answer. It may seem trivial, but when 10% of your final course grade depends on having to force yourself to be wrong or face a public flogging for your "insolence", its not. And that was a common theme for college when I was there. The lack of any practical grounding in reality much of the time was one thing I did not like. And this carried on when I went to work at a research center. Smart people sometimes doing and saying dumb things. It does happen.

In all honesty its easy to do really stupid things when you don't have all the information. In your frame of reference its "correct", but in absolute terms its not. The oft cliché Dunning-Kruger effect. It seems silly, but I have done the exact same thing myself at times. He could have ulterior motives or be dishonest, but we should also not discount the ability to deceive ourselves if we try hard enough :) But, I do wish he would actually have them legitimately peer reviewed. I'm sure he is a good astrophysicist, but it does call into question his methodologies if he doesn't ever consider getting timely feedback before firing off the next paper to maintain relevance. If he does it knowingly then I would not even take his work in his field of expertise seriously without doing my own research first. It just shows very poor ethics.
 

SIY

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In academia and research its amazing how myopic people can potentially get. A random example was when I was an undergrad taking mechanical engineering courses, I had a tenured professor publicly call me an "idiot" after an exam for pointing out that his method of calculating the drag coeffect of a typical passenger car was potentially in error as the "correct" answer on the exam was a Cd of 0.8 rather than the more typical Cd of 0.35. I think even Hummers are more aerodynamic than that. And he concluded that such a low drag coefficient for cars was completely absurd! And by his model (and for certain types of open-wheel cars) the number it gave was correct. A classic case of circular logic. But, at no point did he decide to do some simple research to see what some ballpark values were before formulating it and making it an exam question in a mechanical engineering course that people have to answer. It may seem trivial, but when 10% of your final course grade depends on having to force yourself to be wrong or face a public flogging for your "insolence", its not. And that was a common theme for college when I was there. The lack of any practical grounding in reality much of the time was one thing I did not like. And this carried on when I went to work at a research center. Smart people sometimes doing and saying dumb things. It does happen.

In all honesty its easy to do really stupid things when you don't have all the information. In your frame of reference its "correct", but in absolute terms its not. The oft cliché Dunning-Kruger effect. It seems silly, but I have done the exact same thing myself at times. He could have ulterior motives or be dishonest, but we should also not discount the ability to deceive ourselves if we try hard enough :) But, I do wish he would actually have them legitimately peer reviewed. I'm sure he is a good astrophysicist, but it does call into question his methodologies if he doesn't ever consider getting timely feedback before firing off the next paper to maintain relevance. If he does it knowingly then I would not even take his work in his field of expertise seriously without doing my own research first. It just shows very poor ethics.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action."
 

Endibol

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This is from the AES org page. Which apparently anyone can submit a paper too and if it meets criteria for form it will be reviewed by 2 or more people.

Peer Review

Manuscripts submitted to the Journal of the AES for publication are reviewed anonymously by members of the review board. A complete manuscript is evaluated by at least two reviewers who are competent to assess the material. After the reviewers’ analysis and recommendation to the editors, the author is advised of either acceptance or rejection. On the basis of the reviewers’ comments, the editor may request that the author make certain revisions which will allow the paper to be accepted for publication.
If this is true you wonder about the quality of the peer reviewers invited by the AES: how can a publication like this pass the scrutiny of real experts?
 

anmpr1

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Please check the link http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur//Acoustics-papers.htm which lists the published papers, including "Cable pathways between audio components can affect perceived sound quality", M. N. Kunchur, Journal of the Audio Engineering Society 69, 398–409 (2021).
A problem for interested 'lay' folk is that serious research papers are often difficult to obtain for casual review. AES charges 33 dollars for a copy, or one hundred and twenty five dollars a year, allowing (I guess) unlimited access. So unless you can find a pirated copy on line somewhere (not advised for legal reasons), those at the hobbyist level (who do not have access via an institutional account) will never be able to check anything out. A decent university library should have copies of the Journal, especially one with an EE program, so that could be an option.

It is one of the deals with academia in general. JSTOR and such. Research is essentially closely held. Whether that is the best way, and whether paywalls are a benefit to anyone, is an open question.

One point for published papers. Authors should always list any sponsors providing dollars or in-kind support.

To his credit, and as you linked, his academic page offers some of his writings for free download. Finally, Kunchur lets us know he is writing (or has written) a book, soon to be published: High-end audio -- a scientific perspective.
 

SIY

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A problem for interested 'lay' folk is that serious research papers are often difficult to obtain for casual review. AES charges 33 dollars for a copy, or one hundred and twenty five dollars a year, allowing (I guess) unlimited access. So unless you can find a pirated copy on line somewhere (not advised for legal reasons), those at the hobbyist level (who do not have access via an institutional account) will never be able to check anything out. A decent university library should have copies of the Journal, especially one with an EE program, so that could be an option.

It is one of the deals with academia in general. JSTOR and such. Research is essentially closely held. Whether that is the best way, and whether paywalls are a benefit to anyone, is an open question.

One point for published papers. Authors should always list any sponsors providing dollars or in-kind support.

To his credit, and as you linked, his academic page offers some of his writings for free download. Finally, Kunchur lets us know he is writing (or has written) a book, soon to be published: High-end audio -- a scientific perspective.
In a just world, Alexandra Elbakyan would have a Nobel Prize.
 

anmpr1

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In a just world, Alexandra Elbakyan would have a Nobel Prize.
Information wants to be free and open. Stallman argues that. Some disagree about it, for sure. Maybe sites that closely control information create added value for authors, and the discipline in general. Meetings and get-togethers. Lunch and learn sessions and all that. A lifetime award. I guess they would argue that.

I'm happy that an open debate happens here. It's difficult for anyone to hide their ideas in an open forum. I think the interested lay person gets more for their twenty five dollar donation to ASR, than whatever they'd get by a subscription to AES, or in other fields, JSTOR.
 

tomchris

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To his credit, and as you linked, his academic page offers some of his writings for free download. Finally, Kunchur lets us know he is writing (or has written) a book, soon to be published: High-end audio -- a scientific perspective.

That is one auther I would not waste my time on. Kunchur is doing a disservice to himself and to the field of audio science. It is the Dunning-Kruger effect, problems associated with differences in perception, bias and - of course - vested interest.

What's next on Kunchur to-do list? Measurable differences in power cords?:facepalm:

His book should be more fittingly titled "High-end audio - a science fiction perspective".

There are many types of filters in audio: high-pass, low-pass, bandpass, bandstop, peak, notch... but the most important of them all is the bullshit filter.
 

SIY

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Information wants to be free and open. Stallman argues that. Some disagree about it, for sure. Maybe sites that closely control information create added value for authors, and the discipline in general. Meetings and get-togethers. Lunch and learn sessions and all that. A lifetime award. I guess they would argue that.

I'm happy that an open debate happens here. It's difficult for anyone to hide their ideas in an open forum. I think the interested lay person gets more for their twenty five dollar donation to ASR, than whatever they'd get by a subscription to AES, or in other fields, JSTOR.
My feeling is that, since the great majority of published research is funded by money taken from the citizenry at large, we have a right to see the results. Kunchur is paid from tax dollars and using our involuntarily extracted tax money to build a personally profitable enterprise and fund his hobby. So at the very least, what he does with it should be subject to public scrutiny.

Begs an obvious question about the axiom, but that's a different debate.:D
 

DMill

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Which is what should have been applied by the paper's reviewers.
Right out of the gate Kunchur has chosen 3 cables to measure based on cost but fails to identify them. It doesn’t take a scientist to at least be a little suspicious of his conclusions based on that alone. And it just gets worse from there.
 
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