Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

[Frank Dernie]

Anyone else still worried about that "wrinkle" in the driver?

That doesn't bother me but I can't see how a very narrow driver can have equivalent performance to a circular driver of the same area because the edge of the cone is so long and the edge isn't as effective as the cone itself.
A 1" wide driver 3 feet long would presumably make very little sound because of this.

 

[Pearljam5000]

That doesn't bother me but I can't see how a very narrow driver can have equivalent performance to a circular driver of the same area because the edge of the cone is so long and the edge isn't as effective as the cone itself.
A 1" wide driver 3 feet long would presumably make very little sound because of this.

So you think it's a compromised design?

 

[caught gesture]

So the conversation goes in circles…

 

[Newman]

Well they are 260x140mm so I would not refer to them as “very narrow”

 

[Frank Dernie]

So you think it's a compromised design?

No but i think the idea of adding up the cone area of multiple small area cones and claiming it to be equivalent to a single large driver of the same area doesn't follow.

 

[hvbias]

That's a big reason(1 of 2) why the Salon2 projects a much larger image. One of the biggest reasons/goals for the fully point source design is to get that center image as small and tight as possible. Many people enjoy that(myself included) goal, but some like Amir(and Toole I believe) see that goal as detrimental.

See Amir's comments in the Triangle tower review where he compares it to the much better measuring Revel bookshelf. Despite the tonality being worse, he prefers the Triangle tower because its drivers are spread out more in vertical space, creating a more diffuse image.

I'd be interested in blind tests on this or if @Floyd Toole hasn't already commented on it. My gut feeling is the Salon2 type of larger image would win out in blind testing with trained listeners.

I think I started a thread on this early on when I registered on ASR or if not there was already a thread on this where some of us did feel this was an issue with "smaller" (ie 8361a size) bookshelf speakers.

For myself that is a 90% or more classical listener that realism in imaging/soundstage size is extremely important. The best I've heard was from a K402 constant directivity (horizontal only) system.

 

[Sancus]

No but i think the idea of adding up the cone area of multiple small area cones and claiming it to be equivalent to a single large driver of the same area doesn't follow.

I think you're correct in a vacuum but there are a lot of other factors. The S&R max SPL test makes it pretty clear the 8361a has roughly similar output to the KH420 which has a normal 10" woofer. And that matches up roughly with the summed driver area. That said, it also has double the power to achieve that so clearly the sensitivity is relatively poor but the power handling is great. Of course there may be other drivers and speakers in the same size that outperform both.

Regardless I don't think the actual woofer area matters much when you have proper testing data you can use instead.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I'd be interested in blind tests on this or if @Floyd Toole hasn't already commented on it. My gut feeling is the Salon2 type of larger image would win out in blind testing with trained listeners.

But there is many point source maniatics

 

[hvbias]

But there is many point source maniatics

That factor will be removed in a blind test.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

That factor will be removed in a blind test.

I don't think so.. after all, a point source speaker only sound like a point source one

You can easily know which speaker is, only hearing where is the tweeter-mids

anyway the type of presentation is sufficient different to know inmidialty which speaker is

*Only my opinion*

 

[Longshan]

No but i think the idea of adding up the cone area of multiple small area cones and claiming it to be equivalent to a single large driver of the same area doesn't follow.

Hearing is an interpretive process, and the point of science is to undo the errors our common sense create. Genelec is right.

 

[CMB]

I think I started a thread on this early on when I registered on ASR or if not there was already a thread on this where some of us did feel this was an issue with "smaller" (ie 8361a size) bookshelf speakers.

Probably I will say something very stupid, but I am not certain that the qualification of "smaller" bookshelf speakers really does them justice;
As they actually look pretty large to me , specially compared to my floorstanders.

In cm

8361a => H 59,3 x W 35,7 x D 34,7 cm = 73.460,25

I also have a pair of floorstander : Piega P4 XL MKII (aluminium BTW)
(101x16x20) / 2 (yes, it is a triangle shape) = 16.160

As compared to a KEF R7 (The R7 is commercialized as mid-sized floorstander in KEF's new R Series) :
106,2x20x38,35 = 81.455,4

As compared to a Revel Saloon 2, of course :
135,4x58,4x35,6 = 281.502,02

 

[Pearljam5000]

Probably I will say something very stupid, but I am not certain that the qualification of "smaller" bookshelf speakers really does them justice;
As they actually look pretty large to me , specially compared to my floorstanders.

In cm

8361a => H 59,3 x W 35,7 x D 34,7 cm = 73.460,25

I also have a pair of floorstander : Piega P4 XL MKII (aluminium BTW)
(101x16x20) / 2 (yes, it is a triangle shape) = 16.160

As compared to a KEF R7 (The R7 is commercialized as mid-sized floorstander in KEF's new R Series) :
106,2x20x38,35 = 81.455,4

As compared to a Revel Saloon 2, of course :
135,4x58,4x35,6 = 281.502,02

The question is if because of the their relatively smaller size, they also sound, smaller?
The ATC scm50 for example

is a beast but also has a 10 inch woofer.
Even though i started a thread on this subject,. Im still not sure about it lol

What makes big speakers sound "big"and smaller ones sound "small"?

Sorry for the stupid question but Bigger speakers also sound bigger to me than smaller ones even at the same volume. I've been told this is not correct and impossible but i still feel that way, and also other people do because I read the cliche of "these speaekrs sound much bigger than they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Sancus]

The question is if because of the their relatively smaller size, they also sound, smaller?

This whole "sounds bigger/smaller" thing is fully imaginary though. What I mean by that is not that speaker attributes have no effect, but your impression of size is a complex thing built from visual impressions and biases in addition to any sound.

It is likely that specific speaker attributes like dispersion width, SPL/distortion and other things like tweeter height and low frequency directivity control all contribute, but we don't really know by how much.

My personal experience is that, if you close your eyes and make an effort to ignore the visual factors, there are fewer audible differences in speaker size than most people seem to believe.

At the end of the day, since this impression is an imaginary thing built up by your brain you aren't going to get any easy answers from other people. You'll have to listen to a bunch of speakers yourself.

 

[Pearljam5000]

This whole "sounds bigger/smaller" thing is fully imaginary though. What I mean by that is not that speaker attributes have no effect, but your impression of size is a complex thing built from visual impressions and biases in addition to any sound.

It is likely that specific speaker attributes like dispersion width, SPL/distortion and other things like tweeter height and low frequency directivity control all contribute, but we don't really know by how much.

My personal experience is that, if you close your eyes and make an effort to ignore the visual factors, there are fewer audible differences in speaker size than most people seem to believe.

At the end of the day, since this impression is an imaginary thing built up by your brain you aren't going to get any easy answers from other people. You'll have to listen to a bunch of speakers yourself.

So you're basically saying Genelec 8010 and Revel Salon 2 should sound as big?

 

[Sancus]

So you're basically saying Genelec 8010 and Revel Salon 2 should sound as big?

No. What I said was the differences seem less than most people experience in sighted comparisons, not that there are none. I don't know of a study for this, so I don't know how much blinding reduces the subjective impression.

What I was cautioning you against is trying to build subjective impressions of a very vague type by asking people on a forum. I mean, you got some very detailed responses in your thread and a wide variety of subjective impressions based on different factors.

If I tell you a speaker sounds big to me and you buy it, you can easily decide it sounds small, because you mounted it at a different height or it interacts with your room in a different way or you like to play louder than I do or simply because it looks smaller to you. That's why I'm telling you you need some firsthand experiences.

Personally, I only listen in multichannel, so that may not even apply to stereo. But I did not notice any real "size" difference switching between 8351Bs and KH80s for particular channels. The dispersion differences are very noticeable especially if you move around, however. I have not had floorstanders in here, but I have listened to many in mch setups elsewhere, and the only thing that I've noticed makes much difference is tweeter height. Which is variable for a stand mount anyways.

 

[hvbias]

I don't think so.. after all, a point source speaker only sound like a point source one

You can easily know which speaker is, only hearing where is the tweeter-mids

anyway the type of presentation is sufficient different to know inmidialty which speaker is

These are all in sighted listening tests where people can see the physical arrangement of the drivers, this can be a very powerful motivator in perception. Unless there are some blind tests that were done in which case I'd definitely like to see them Blind the listeners where mid/tweeter axis can be matched up as best as possible for the non-coaxial design. And for me at least as I'm not in a professional monitoring environment vertical directivity is not as important (even Salon2 does not come remotely close to the performance of some of the new designs in this regard).

The second point is Harman's style of testing isn't ABX trying to identify a speaker, it's a preference test. Which for me is extremely meaningful when the listeners are trained, even though Harman's tests show even untrained listeners end up preferring the same type of design.

I think this type of testing starts to get very important in not trying to lose focus in what matters.

Having said all that, it would probably still take me a lot to choose a Salon2/amps over Kii, D&D or Genelec. I'd be more comfortable making a blind purchase on any of those three over the Salon2 even though these have sounded quite good every time I've heard them.

Personally, I only listen in multichannel, so that may not even apply to stereo.

I would say this is a massive thing going in your favor. With good multichannel recordings you can do a much better job recreating the size/scale with ambience in the rear channels that will add to creating a perception of the concert hall. Us stereo schlubs still have to make do with pretending. And I am forced to do stereo as the performance quality in classical is more important to me than the recording quality; ie there is no going back in time to record Szell, Furtwangler, Barbirolli, Sviatoslav Richter, etc in multichannel.

 

[Laserjock]

I’ll try it out tomorrow. I have Sennheiser HD800S for comparison, and will test on my 8361A’s in stereo and then switch on the rear 8351B’s in various modes and report what I perceive between all of these. I’ll also try on my JBL 705P just because why not.

Have a chance to do this yet?

 

[echopraxia]

Have a chance to do this yet?

Sorry for the delay, work became incredibly busy just shortly after I wrote that. I’ll catch up on this thread and see if I can get some listening time in to those tracks soon

 

[Elkios]

The question is if because of the their relatively smaller size, they also sound, smaller?
The ATC scm50 for example View attachment 172499is a beast but also has a 10 inch woofer.
Even though i started a thread on this subject,. Im still not sure about it lol

What makes big speakers sound "big"and smaller ones sound "small"?

Sorry for the stupid question but Bigger speakers also sound bigger to me than smaller ones even at the same volume. I've been told this is not correct and impossible but i still feel that way, and also other people do because I read the cliche of "these speaekrs sound much bigger than they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This whole "sounds bigger/smaller" thing is fully imaginary though. What I mean by that is not that speaker attributes have no effect, but your impression of size is a complex thing built from visual impressions and biases in addition to any sound.

It is likely that specific speaker attributes like dispersion width, SPL/distortion and other things like tweeter height and low frequency directivity control all contribute, but we don't really know by how much.

My personal experience is that, if you close your eyes and make an effort to ignore the visual factors, there are fewer audible differences in speaker size than most people seem to believe.

At the end of the day, since this impression is an imaginary thing built up by your brain you aren't going to get any easy answers from other people. You'll have to listen to a bunch of speakers yourself.

The time has come upon the ASR forum to sponsor Pearljam so as to hear all the dream speaker's .