• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Worst measuring loudspeaker?

mwmkravchenko

Active Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
173
Likes
182
Location
Perth Ontario
Really not bad, only the "Pair matching is slightly poor at 1.3dB through the mid/presence region" especially in that region can be quite audible.
Really? Listening to music I doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference between one speaker and the other with a 1.3db difference. Under very unique circumstances it could effect the balance a bit. But that would be really stretching the concept of pair matching. Your potentiometer volume control has worse track to track matching I promise.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,552
Likes
15,585
Really? Listening to music I doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference between one speaker and the other with a 1.3db difference. Under very unique circumstances it could effect the balance a bit. But that would be really stretching the concept of pair matching. Your potentiometer volume control has worse track to track matching I promise.
1+ dB is unfortunately audible with some music in that region (easy to direct test with a PC or DSP/EQ) and decent preamps have definitely less channel deviation, my current rather entry class one has less than 0.1 dB at the typical listening levels:

Volume-control accuracy (measured at speaker outputs): left-right channel tracking

Volume positionChannel deviation
10.1dB
100.08dB
300.04dB
500.06dB
700.05dB
800.03dB
960.007dB

Source: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...ts&catid=97:amplifier-measurements&Itemid=154
 

mwmkravchenko

Active Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
173
Likes
182
Location
Perth Ontario
1+ dB is unfortunately audible with some music in that region (easy to direct test with a PC or DSP/EQ) and decent preamps have definitely less channel deviation, my current rather entry class one has less than 0.1 dB at the typical listening levels:

Volume-control accuracy (measured at speaker outputs): left-right channel tracking

Volume positionChannel deviation
10.1dB
100.08dB
300.04dB
500.06dB
700.05dB
800.03dB
960.007dB

Source: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...ts&catid=97:amplifier-measurements&Itemid=154
I agree, It is why I mentioned potentiometer. Most preamplifiers and receivers use a mechanical Potentiometer with two resistive
tracks and a mechanical wiper that follows the track. If your idea is correct there are decades of equipment that adversely effected the reproduced sound. The truth is that you room and listening position have as much or greater effect than this.

As for testing, if you are in control of the test there is very little validity in the results. There is a very real effect called confirmation bias. It is why ABX testing was invented.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,552
Likes
15,585
I agree, It is why I mentioned potentiometer. Most preamplifiers and receivers use a mechanical Potentiometer with two resistive
tracks and a mechanical wiper that follows the track. If your idea is correct there are decades of equipment that adversely effected the reproduced sound. The truth is that you room and listening position have as much or greater effect than this.

As for testing, if you are in control of the test there is very little validity in the results. There is a very real effect called confirmation bias. It is why ABX testing was invented.
Again a 1+ dB channel deviation is audible and that's why such is tested in audio devices and just because many had such problems (usually less in the higher volume settings were it would be more audible) it doesn't make the problem be none. Same for room acoustics, of course they can add also some imbalance but this would additional and not an excuse to allow such in audio devices. About testing yourself of course even two files can be made with such an tested for example with the foobar ABX plug in.
 

mwmkravchenko

Active Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
173
Likes
182
Location
Perth Ontario
Again a 1+ dB channel deviation is audible and that's why such is tested in audio devices and just because many had such problems (usually less in the higher volume settings were it would be more audible) it doesn't make the problem be none. Same for room acoustics, of course they can add also some imbalance but this would additional and not an excuse to allow such in audio devices. About testing yourself of course even two files can be made with such an tested for example with the foobar ABX plug in.
OK. All I can tell you is that I design loudspeakers for a living. I am a musician, have hearing that other people consider special and can listen to music and tell what is going on that most people cannot. And for the sake of clarity I have done A/B testing using music. Specifically Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong with another person changing the settings Craig Devin of Avantone, Alesis, Behringer and a few other companies) and myself literally blindfolded. I was the golden eared tester of a number of loudspeakers that he was working on, and for which I had designed the AMT for. 1 db was not noticeable. I have done similar tests with other people with myself at the controls, and like myself under music conditions it takes 2 to 3 db before there is a discernible difference. And like myself a change in listening position from perfect is of greater difference than the effects that are created by a single db of change. When you have done the same testing in the real world I would love to talk it over a cup of coffee or tea or beer.

Enjoying music is what this is all about in the first place. And it is a great thing to never loose sight of in the first place.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,552
Likes
15,585
Sorry but I have done myself also a lot of testing and although I have passed the Harman and Philips golden ear listening tests I wouldn't call myself a great ear but such a high and wide peak or dip in the region where the hearing is most sensitive is something usually audible to me. If you search this forum there were several discussions where even the audibility of wide 0.2-0.5 dB peaks and dips in the presence region are discussed.

Of course enjoying the music should be the final target but that wasn't questioned here.
 
Last edited:
OP
Purité Audio

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
8,799
Likes
11,650
Location
London
‘O-Baby’,
The estimable JA says in his summation,
‘ Its measured behavior suggests that careful setup will be necessary to optimize the treble balance’.Well isn’t that the truth.
Thank you John Atkinson and Stereophile.
Keith
IMG_3310.jpeg
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,131
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
‘O-Baby’,
The estimable JA says in his summation,
‘ Its measured behavior suggests that careful setup will be necessary to optimize the treble balance’.Well isn’t that the truth.
Thank you John Atkinson and Stereophile.
KeithView attachment 330349
That wouldn't be bad if they just shelved the treble a little. I have to wonder how much a couple resistors can cost.
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,479
Likes
5,392
Location
UK
‘O-Baby’,
The estimable JA says in his summation,
‘ Its measured behavior suggests that careful setup will be necessary to optimize the treble balance’.Well isn’t that the truth.
Thank you John Atkinson and Stereophile.
KeithView attachment 330349
The on axis looks SOTA for Devore, the off axis is something else.
1223-Devobfig4-600.jpg
 

Godataloss

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
462
Likes
504
Location
Northern Ohio
Considering my Khorns have nearly doubled in value in the few years I've owned them, I'd say they measure far better than most any speaker I've heard mentioned on ASR, lol.
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,479
Likes
5,392
Location
UK
This is a normalized display. So the on-axis will always be a straight line. The off axis plots just show how different the off axis response is from the on-axis, however that on-axis really measures.
The on axis I was refering to was the graph Keith posted, and I was joking about the SOTA as this is a Devore speaker.
 
OP
Purité Audio

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
8,799
Likes
11,650
Location
London
That wouldn't be bad if they just shelved the treble a little. I have to wonder how much a couple resistors can cost.
In the designer’s ears perhaps.
Keith
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,131
Location
Northern Virginia, USA

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
6,890
Likes
11,301
‘O-Baby’,
The estimable JA says in his summation,
‘ Its measured behavior suggests that careful setup will be necessary to optimize the treble balance’.Well isn’t that the truth.
Thank you John Atkinson and Stereophile.
KeithView attachment 330349

Yay! A Stereophile review of the Devore O/baby speakers! I was hoping I'd see that sometime. Thanks for alerting about the review!

Given I love the sound Devore is going for in his speakers, especially in the "O" series, I was almost considering buying some O/baby's without hearing them first (since they are hard to find at dealers, and since Devore speakers maintain their price especially well on the used market, it wouldn't be a huge deal re-selling if I didn't like them enough).

This is a case where I take more from the subjective review over the always slightly wonky Devore measurements, or over what the ASR crowd will say dismissively about these speakers, as the subjective reviewers who like the O series tend to appreciate and describe qualities I like about them as well.
 
OP
Purité Audio

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
8,799
Likes
11,650
Location
London
Hi-Fi News again this week’Canton’
IMG_3334.jpeg

These are £5k what do you think given Miller’s rather sparse set of measurements .
Keith
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,131
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
OP
Purité Audio

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
8,799
Likes
11,650
Location
London
The peak at 10k would hurt my ears. But a little EQ is no big deal anymore.
Mediocre measurements are just impossible to become exercised over aren’t they, give me a real stinker every time.
Keith
 
Top Bottom