• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

Sergei

Senior Member
Patreon Donor
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
318
Likes
214
Location
Palo Alto, CA, USA
Sure. Those are the corrections that I inserted for use in my room and which I failed to defeat when I sent the speakers on to JA. He became aware of their inclusion only after he ran his sweeps. So, you can ignore those dips.
Oh, the dips weren't the issue. They were below 80 Hz, and one of the articles reviewing this particular pair of 8Cs mentioned why they were introduced. Thank you for taking your time to clarify this once again.

The still remaining point of disagreement between me and some esteemed members of this forum is the desirability of such hybrid acousto-DSP crossover at 100 Hz for studio use.

Ever since I dabbled in Comsol Acoustic Simulations (https://www.comsol.com/products), I realized that dynamic transducers generate highly complex 3D pressure fields even in idealized or very simple settings.

The way to deal with this inherent complexity was to design studio monitors enclosures and waveguides that allowed keeping the pressure field uniform enough for the human hearing system to not notice the inconsistencies, as long as the listener's head is within sweet spot.

The rest of the pressure field, typically anything beyond 45 degrees horizontally and 15 degrees vertically from the axis, can't be effectively controlled, and thus is usually suppressed using room treatments (but not completely eliminated).

If 8Cs are placed in front of a reflective wall at zero degrees, or in a reflective corner of a rectangular room at 45 degrees, the crossover summation around 100 Hz works acoustically well, and I expect people using 8Cs in such environments to be happy with their spatial accuracy.

If, however, 8Cs reproducing L and R channels are placed at 30 degrees angle to the front wall, as recommended for reproduction of stereo and multi-channel sound, the acoustic picture becomes much more complex, especially if the room is asymmetrical or have asymmetrically-placed furniture.

The acoustic field generated in this case emphasizes some characteristics of sound at the expense of others. The oft-cited 8Cs "wall of sound" and "larger than life sound image" are there, yet accurate instruments placement no longer is.

Acoustically, 8Cs would be both highly accurate and compliant with the placement standards when installed in houses and mixing/mastering studios with hexagonal rooms (e.g. https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mo...f8c07f5d41f5a8/Hexagonal-House-with-Courtyard).

Hexagonal rooms are sparse in the world. Thus the market niches that 8Cs could truly benefit are the ones where consumers care more about the aforementioned Wall of Sound than about the spacial accuracy.
 

Snarfie

Active Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
298
Likes
133
Location
Netherlands
The acoustic field generated in this case emphasizes some characteristics of sound at the expense of others. The oft-cited 8Cs "wall of sound" and "larger than life sound image" are there, yet accurate instruments placement no longer is.

Acoustically, 8Cs would be both highly accurate and compliant with the placement standards when installed in houses and mixing/mastering studios with hexagonal rooms (e.g. https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mo...f8c07f5d41f5a8/Hexagonal-House-with-Courtyard).

Hexagonal rooms are sparse in the world. Thus the market niches that 8Cs could truly benefit are the ones where consumers care more about the aforementioned Wall of Sound than about the spacial accuracy.
Do you refer with "wall of sound" to the sound that phil Spector developt or high volume, saturation, distortion in music as describe here under i guess the latest.

This article is about Phil Spector's music production formula. It is not to be confused with the generic term "wall of sound", used to describe high volume, saturation, or distortion in music. For more details on that topic, see Noise music or Noise in music. For other uses, see Wall of Sound (disambiguation).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound
 

Juhazi

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
570
Likes
497
Location
Finland
Oh, the dips weren't the issue. They were below 80 Hz, and one of the articles reviewing this particular pair of 8Cs mentioned why they were introduced. Thank you for taking your time to clarify this once again.

The still remaining point of disagreement between me and some esteemed members of this forum is the desirability of such hybrid acousto-DSP crossover at 100 Hz for studio use.
...
If 8Cs are placed in front of a reflective wall at zero degrees, or in a reflective corner of a rectangular room at 45 degrees, the crossover summation around 100 Hz works acoustically well, and I expect people using 8Cs in such environments to be happy with their spatial accuracy.

If, however, 8Cs reproducing L and R channels are placed at 30 degrees angle to the front wall, as recommended for reproduction of stereo and multi-channel sound, the acoustic picture becomes much more complex, especially if the room is asymmetrical or have asymmetrically-placed furniture.

The acoustic field generated in this case emphasizes some characteristics of sound at the expense of others. The oft-cited 8Cs "wall of sound" and "larger than life sound image" are there, yet accurate instruments placement no longer is.
..
.
No, it's the contrary - the cardioid pattern above 100Hz makes D&D less sensitive to placement changes than normal speakers, less interferences with the front and sidewalls! Below 100Hz wavelength is so long that 30deg rotation is meaningless to reflections. "Monopole" speakers with same dimensions are omnipole up to around 300Hz, then gradually reach the directivity of D&D at roughly 1,5kHz

Getting cardioid response below 100Hz requires several pretty large drivers and trickery with the box or dsp. Something like this 2x18"



https://kimmosaunisto.net/CardSub/CARDSUB.html
 

Sergei

Senior Member
Patreon Donor
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
318
Likes
214
Location
Palo Alto, CA, USA
Do you refer with "wall of sound" to the sound that phil Spector developt or high volume, saturation, distortion in music as describe here under i guess the latest.
No. I refer to a class of auditory illusions related to enlargement of perceived sound sources.

Imagine a single bumblebee flying in a complex pattern at a distance of 2 meters from you. Human hearing system is well-attuned to tracking the direction to such sound object - you can close your eyes and still "see" it with your ears.

Now imagine a dozen of them flying in a general vicinity of a point at the same distance. This time around, your hearing system will perceive a larger, relatively firmly positioned, object in space, instead of individual bumblebees.

Similarly, if a sound reproduction system + room combination creates multiple sound images of a true sound object, the result could be an illusion of a larger object, with timbral characteristics similar to the true sound object.
 

Sergei

Senior Member
Patreon Donor
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
318
Likes
214
Location
Palo Alto, CA, USA
No, it's the contrary - the cardioid pattern above 100Hz makes D&D less sensitive to placement changes than normal speakers, less interferences with the front and sidewalls!
In an anechoic chamber you are getting a semblance of cardioid pattern. However, in a real-life room such pattern will be perturbed by reflections. What you will actually get will strongly depend on the distances to, angles, shapes, and materials of surfaces surrounding the 8C. At least one such surface will be present because 8C requires a reflective front wall.

A logical fallacy:
Step 1: Measure 3D sound pressure field in an anechoic chamber.
Step 2: Put the speaker in a highly echoic environment.
Step 3: Expect the 3D sound pressure field to remain the same.
Below 100Hz wavelength is so long that 30deg rotation is meaningless to reflections. "Monopole" speakers with same dimensions are omnipole up to around 300Hz, then gradually reach the directivity of D&D at roughly 1,5kHz
The rotation at the very least will affect the shape of the 3D sound pressure field in the mid-woofer frequency range (between 100 Hz and 1.25 KHz). In even wider range of frequencies, if we take into account crossover effects.

The half-wavelength at 1.25 KHz is about 14 centimeters. Changing a distance from a radiating surface to a reflective surface by that much may turn resonance into cancellation.

8C has three radiating openings operating in this frequency range. If rotated 30 degrees, at least one of them will be pointing to a reflective surface. In real-life rooms, at least two of them will be pointing to some reflective surfaces.

The result would be multiple images of a true sound object, which creates an audio illusion of a perceptually enlarged sound source. Some listeners like it. As others mentioned, similarly enlarging Bose 901 was quite successful in certain market niches.
 

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Patreon Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,078
Likes
980
Location
New York City
No, it's the contrary - the cardioid pattern above 100Hz makes D&D less sensitive to placement changes than normal speakers, less interferences with the front and sidewalls! Below 100Hz wavelength is so long that 30deg rotation is meaningless to reflections. "Monopole" speakers with same dimensions are omnipole up to around 300Hz, then gradually reach the directivity of D&D at roughly 1,5kHz

Getting cardioid response below 100Hz requires several pretty large drivers and trickery with the box or dsp. Something like this 2x18"



https://kimmosaunisto.net/CardSub/CARDSUB.html
I'm hoping that D&D makes some cardioid bass bins similar to the Kii BXTs. A DIY project like the cardioid subwoofer above would be fun, but I don't trust myself to build something that measures as well as the 8Cs.
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom