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Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

Sergei

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Sure. Those are the corrections that I inserted for use in my room and which I failed to defeat when I sent the speakers on to JA. He became aware of their inclusion only after he ran his sweeps. So, you can ignore those dips.
Oh, the dips weren't the issue. They were below 80 Hz, and one of the articles reviewing this particular pair of 8Cs mentioned why they were introduced. Thank you for taking your time to clarify this once again.

The still remaining point of disagreement between me and some esteemed members of this forum is the desirability of such hybrid acousto-DSP crossover at 100 Hz for studio use.

Ever since I dabbled in Comsol Acoustic Simulations (https://www.comsol.com/products), I realized that dynamic transducers generate highly complex 3D pressure fields even in idealized or very simple settings.

The way to deal with this inherent complexity was to design studio monitors enclosures and waveguides that allowed keeping the pressure field uniform enough for the human hearing system to not notice the inconsistencies, as long as the listener's head is within sweet spot.

The rest of the pressure field, typically anything beyond 45 degrees horizontally and 15 degrees vertically from the axis, can't be effectively controlled, and thus is usually suppressed using room treatments (but not completely eliminated).

If 8Cs are placed in front of a reflective wall at zero degrees, or in a reflective corner of a rectangular room at 45 degrees, the crossover summation around 100 Hz works acoustically well, and I expect people using 8Cs in such environments to be happy with their spatial accuracy.

If, however, 8Cs reproducing L and R channels are placed at 30 degrees angle to the front wall, as recommended for reproduction of stereo and multi-channel sound, the acoustic picture becomes much more complex, especially if the room is asymmetrical or have asymmetrically-placed furniture.

The acoustic field generated in this case emphasizes some characteristics of sound at the expense of others. The oft-cited 8Cs "wall of sound" and "larger than life sound image" are there, yet accurate instruments placement no longer is.

Acoustically, 8Cs would be both highly accurate and compliant with the placement standards when installed in houses and mixing/mastering studios with hexagonal rooms (e.g. https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mo...f8c07f5d41f5a8/Hexagonal-House-with-Courtyard).

Hexagonal rooms are sparse in the world. Thus the market niches that 8Cs could truly benefit are the ones where consumers care more about the aforementioned Wall of Sound than about the spacial accuracy.
 

Snarfie

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The acoustic field generated in this case emphasizes some characteristics of sound at the expense of others. The oft-cited 8Cs "wall of sound" and "larger than life sound image" are there, yet accurate instruments placement no longer is.

Acoustically, 8Cs would be both highly accurate and compliant with the placement standards when installed in houses and mixing/mastering studios with hexagonal rooms (e.g. https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mo...f8c07f5d41f5a8/Hexagonal-House-with-Courtyard).

Hexagonal rooms are sparse in the world. Thus the market niches that 8Cs could truly benefit are the ones where consumers care more about the aforementioned Wall of Sound than about the spacial accuracy.
Do you refer with "wall of sound" to the sound that phil Spector developt or high volume, saturation, distortion in music as describe here under i guess the latest.

This article is about Phil Spector's music production formula. It is not to be confused with the generic term "wall of sound", used to describe high volume, saturation, or distortion in music. For more details on that topic, see Noise music or Noise in music. For other uses, see Wall of Sound (disambiguation).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound
 

Juhazi

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Oh, the dips weren't the issue. They were below 80 Hz, and one of the articles reviewing this particular pair of 8Cs mentioned why they were introduced. Thank you for taking your time to clarify this once again.

The still remaining point of disagreement between me and some esteemed members of this forum is the desirability of such hybrid acousto-DSP crossover at 100 Hz for studio use.
...
If 8Cs are placed in front of a reflective wall at zero degrees, or in a reflective corner of a rectangular room at 45 degrees, the crossover summation around 100 Hz works acoustically well, and I expect people using 8Cs in such environments to be happy with their spatial accuracy.

If, however, 8Cs reproducing L and R channels are placed at 30 degrees angle to the front wall, as recommended for reproduction of stereo and multi-channel sound, the acoustic picture becomes much more complex, especially if the room is asymmetrical or have asymmetrically-placed furniture.

The acoustic field generated in this case emphasizes some characteristics of sound at the expense of others. The oft-cited 8Cs "wall of sound" and "larger than life sound image" are there, yet accurate instruments placement no longer is.
..
.
No, it's the contrary - the cardioid pattern above 100Hz makes D&D less sensitive to placement changes than normal speakers, less interferences with the front and sidewalls! Below 100Hz wavelength is so long that 30deg rotation is meaningless to reflections. "Monopole" speakers with same dimensions are omnipole up to around 300Hz, then gradually reach the directivity of D&D at roughly 1,5kHz

Getting cardioid response below 100Hz requires several pretty large drivers and trickery with the box or dsp. Something like this 2x18"



https://kimmosaunisto.net/CardSub/CARDSUB.html
 

Sergei

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Do you refer with "wall of sound" to the sound that phil Spector developt or high volume, saturation, distortion in music as describe here under i guess the latest.
No. I refer to a class of auditory illusions related to enlargement of perceived sound sources.

Imagine a single bumblebee flying in a complex pattern at a distance of 2 meters from you. Human hearing system is well-attuned to tracking the direction to such sound object - you can close your eyes and still "see" it with your ears.

Now imagine a dozen of them flying in a general vicinity of a point at the same distance. This time around, your hearing system will perceive a larger, relatively firmly positioned, object in space, instead of individual bumblebees.

Similarly, if a sound reproduction system + room combination creates multiple sound images of a true sound object, the result could be an illusion of a larger object, with timbral characteristics similar to the true sound object.
 

Sergei

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No, it's the contrary - the cardioid pattern above 100Hz makes D&D less sensitive to placement changes than normal speakers, less interferences with the front and sidewalls!
In an anechoic chamber you are getting a semblance of cardioid pattern. However, in a real-life room such pattern will be perturbed by reflections. What you will actually get will strongly depend on the distances to, angles, shapes, and materials of surfaces surrounding the 8C. At least one such surface will be present because 8C requires a reflective front wall.

A logical fallacy:
Step 1: Measure 3D sound pressure field in an anechoic chamber.
Step 2: Put the speaker in a highly echoic environment.
Step 3: Expect the 3D sound pressure field to remain the same.
Below 100Hz wavelength is so long that 30deg rotation is meaningless to reflections. "Monopole" speakers with same dimensions are omnipole up to around 300Hz, then gradually reach the directivity of D&D at roughly 1,5kHz
The rotation at the very least will affect the shape of the 3D sound pressure field in the mid-woofer frequency range (between 100 Hz and 1.25 KHz). In even wider range of frequencies, if we take into account crossover effects.

The half-wavelength at 1.25 KHz is about 14 centimeters. Changing a distance from a radiating surface to a reflective surface by that much may turn resonance into cancellation.

8C has three radiating openings operating in this frequency range. If rotated 30 degrees, at least one of them will be pointing to a reflective surface. In real-life rooms, at least two of them will be pointing to some reflective surfaces.

The result would be multiple images of a true sound object, which creates an audio illusion of a perceptually enlarged sound source. Some listeners like it. As others mentioned, similarly enlarging Bose 901 was quite successful in certain market niches.
 

Dialectic

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No, it's the contrary - the cardioid pattern above 100Hz makes D&D less sensitive to placement changes than normal speakers, less interferences with the front and sidewalls! Below 100Hz wavelength is so long that 30deg rotation is meaningless to reflections. "Monopole" speakers with same dimensions are omnipole up to around 300Hz, then gradually reach the directivity of D&D at roughly 1,5kHz

Getting cardioid response below 100Hz requires several pretty large drivers and trickery with the box or dsp. Something like this 2x18"



https://kimmosaunisto.net/CardSub/CARDSUB.html
I'm hoping that D&D makes some cardioid bass bins similar to the Kii BXTs. A DIY project like the cardioid subwoofer above would be fun, but I don't trust myself to build something that measures as well as the 8Cs.
 
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I have no problem with amplification and processing inside speaker cabinets, as long as the inevitable parts required are reasonable and freely available. I don't for one second believe these companies will:

a) charge reasonable prices for parts
b) have those parts in stock over the long term (10-20+ years)
c) still be in business, offer firmware upgrades options to bring older products up to date etc.

They are selling these into studios and these guys are in it for the long haul- they hammer their gear and expect it to last and be repairable.
There are a lot of end-of-life options here. (postulating D&D's eventual demise): A couple of techs/engineers buy remaining stock and technical docs and have a modest but steady repair and remanufacture business going. A major audio company could do the same. Happens all the time in various tech businesses, especially ones that have limited markets and highly respected products.

Having studios as major customers (in my opinion) will create demand for this type of service (should it become necessary.)
 

stevenswall

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Have you compared the 8260as with and without subs first one and then two.
I have.
Keith
What were the results of your comparison? I just got the 8260 and there is more bass than I expected, but I could also be a bass junky who hasn't come out yet because how deep it is makes me want even more... Thinking about getting two woofers and using them as stands and just tilting the Genelec 8260 upwards, but I suppose that might not be the ideal position for the woofers.

Are you a bass head? I love extension, but also love Etymotic earphones if that gives you an idea.

The guy I bought the Genelec system from is upgrading to a Dutch & Dutch 8C.
 

stevenswall

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Not that your statement isn't reasonable, most of them actually are, but I'm stll not sure if headphone guys should be allowed to post in loudspeaker related topics - nothing personal though, just a matter of principle.. :p:D
I think speaker guys should listen more to headphone guys when they say that many speakers can't compete, especially with bass extension. The 8260 is the only thing besides a Phantom Reactor that is in the same league as my earphones.

Also: Headphone guys should listen to speaker guys when they talk about soundstage, and stop worrying as much about the difference between the "soundstage" in headphones. We're talking about "minutial" differences between earphones the produce sound-stages that seem at most to be less than 5% of a pair of speakers with good positioning and a solid phantom center.

...Unless we're talking about binaural audio, which sounds better to me than any surround sound setup I'd heard. The Smyth Realizer was a very cool experience when I listened to it.

-Back on the topic of the 8C-

Let's say for fun that a $5000 pair of studio monitors could go just as loud and deep. Would spending half of the difference between the $5k and the price of the Dutch & Dutch on home-made sound treatment sound better than the 8C, or would the 8C in an untreated room sound better?

Heck, even spending half of the difference on pre-made 4" Corning 703 sound panels and some Auralex Geofusors seems like you could accomplish a noticeable amount of treatment.
 

Soniclife

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I think speaker guys should listen more to headphone guys when they say that many speakers can't compete, especially with bass extension. The 8260 is the only thing besides a Phantom Reactor that is in the same league as my earphones.
I've never heard headphones compete with speakers for bass, have I heard the wrong headphones, or do people perceive headphone bass differently?
 

Purité Audio

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I think speaker guys should listen more to headphone guys when they say that many speakers can't compete, especially with bass extension. The 8260 is the only thing besides a Phantom Reactor that is in the same league as my earphones.

Also: Headphone guys should listen to speaker guys when they talk about soundstage, and stop worrying as much about the difference between the "soundstage" in headphones. We're talking about "minutial" differences between earphones the produce sound-stages that seem at most to be less than 5% of a pair of speakers with good positioning and a solid phantom center.

...Unless we're talking about binaural audio, which sounds better to me than any surround sound setup I'd heard. The Smyth Realizer was a very cool experience when I listened to it.

-Back on the topic of the 8C-

Let's say for fun that a $5000 pair of studio monitors could go just as loud and deep. Would spending half of the difference between the $5k and the price of the Dutch & Dutch on home-made sound treatment sound better than the 8C, or would the 8C in an untreated room sound better?

Heck, even spending half of the difference on pre-made 4" Corning 703 sound panels and some Auralex Geofusors seems like you could accomplish a noticeable amount of treatment.
I had 8260’s and matching 7270 subs, GLM software and a room full of acoustic treatment.
Much prefer the 8Cs.
keith
 
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God bless America.
The 8Cs and Kiis are really good Sal, I don’t know why the giant US companies can’t bring it something as innovative, and I know it must sting a little perhaps you should ask them?
Keith
I fervently hope (and believe), that the sonic superiority of active/DSP/cardioid speakers like Kii/Dutch/Beolab will be so obvious to listeners that larger speaker manufacturers with the bucks to follow the trend will do so, and at lower cost that peons like us can afford. The science is straightforward, objective measurements can be done easily, things can be copied. The question is "Is there is a market for top quality sound reproduction that can handle these prices?" and "How many folks in this market will actually listen for themselves instead of reading magazines that hype the often over-priced products of advertisers they depend on?" I am not so sure about either of the last 2 propositions as far as "audiophiles" are concerned. Pros with money will always pay for the best performance and understand the measurements that matter.
 

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