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Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

Sergei

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Do you refer with "wall of sound" to the sound that phil Spector developt or high volume, saturation, distortion in music as describe here under i guess the latest.

No. I refer to a class of auditory illusions related to enlargement of perceived sound sources.

Imagine a single bumblebee flying in a complex pattern at a distance of 2 meters from you. Human hearing system is well-attuned to tracking the direction to such sound object - you can close your eyes and still "see" it with your ears.

Now imagine a dozen of them flying in a general vicinity of a point at the same distance. This time around, your hearing system will perceive a larger, relatively firmly positioned, object in space, instead of individual bumblebees.

Similarly, if a sound reproduction system + room combination creates multiple sound images of a true sound object, the result could be an illusion of a larger object, with timbral characteristics similar to the true sound object.
 

Sergei

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No, it's the contrary - the cardioid pattern above 100Hz makes D&D less sensitive to placement changes than normal speakers, less interferences with the front and sidewalls!

In an anechoic chamber you are getting a semblance of cardioid pattern. However, in a real-life room such pattern will be perturbed by reflections. What you will actually get will strongly depend on the distances to, angles, shapes, and materials of surfaces surrounding the 8C. At least one such surface will be present because 8C requires a reflective front wall.

A logical fallacy:
Step 1: Measure 3D sound pressure field in an anechoic chamber.
Step 2: Put the speaker in a highly echoic environment.
Step 3: Expect the 3D sound pressure field to remain the same.
Below 100Hz wavelength is so long that 30deg rotation is meaningless to reflections. "Monopole" speakers with same dimensions are omnipole up to around 300Hz, then gradually reach the directivity of D&D at roughly 1,5kHz

The rotation at the very least will affect the shape of the 3D sound pressure field in the mid-woofer frequency range (between 100 Hz and 1.25 KHz). In even wider range of frequencies, if we take into account crossover effects.

The half-wavelength at 1.25 KHz is about 14 centimeters. Changing a distance from a radiating surface to a reflective surface by that much may turn resonance into cancellation.

8C has three radiating openings operating in this frequency range. If rotated 30 degrees, at least one of them will be pointing to a reflective surface. In real-life rooms, at least two of them will be pointing to some reflective surfaces.

The result would be multiple images of a true sound object, which creates an audio illusion of a perceptually enlarged sound source. Some listeners like it. As others mentioned, similarly enlarging Bose 901 was quite successful in certain market niches.
 

Purité Audio

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BostonJack

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I have no problem with amplification and processing inside speaker cabinets, as long as the inevitable parts required are reasonable and freely available. I don't for one second believe these companies will:

a) charge reasonable prices for parts
b) have those parts in stock over the long term (10-20+ years)
c) still be in business, offer firmware upgrades options to bring older products up to date etc.

They are selling these into studios and these guys are in it for the long haul- they hammer their gear and expect it to last and be repairable.

There are a lot of end-of-life options here. (postulating D&D's eventual demise): A couple of techs/engineers buy remaining stock and technical docs and have a modest but steady repair and remanufacture business going. A major audio company could do the same. Happens all the time in various tech businesses, especially ones that have limited markets and highly respected products.

Having studios as major customers (in my opinion) will create demand for this type of service (should it become necessary.)
 

stevenswall

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Have you compared the 8260as with and without subs first one and then two.
I have.
Keith

What were the results of your comparison? I just got the 8260 and there is more bass than I expected, but I could also be a bass junky who hasn't come out yet because how deep it is makes me want even more... Thinking about getting two woofers and using them as stands and just tilting the Genelec 8260 upwards, but I suppose that might not be the ideal position for the woofers.

Are you a bass head? I love extension, but also love Etymotic earphones if that gives you an idea.

The guy I bought the Genelec system from is upgrading to a Dutch & Dutch 8C.
 

stevenswall

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Not that your statement isn't reasonable, most of them actually are, but I'm stll not sure if headphone guys should be allowed to post in loudspeaker related topics - nothing personal though, just a matter of principle.. :p:D

I think speaker guys should listen more to headphone guys when they say that many speakers can't compete, especially with bass extension. The 8260 is the only thing besides a Phantom Reactor that is in the same league as my earphones.

Also: Headphone guys should listen to speaker guys when they talk about soundstage, and stop worrying as much about the difference between the "soundstage" in headphones. We're talking about "minutial" differences between earphones the produce sound-stages that seem at most to be less than 5% of a pair of speakers with good positioning and a solid phantom center.

...Unless we're talking about binaural audio, which sounds better to me than any surround sound setup I'd heard. The Smyth Realizer was a very cool experience when I listened to it.

-Back on the topic of the 8C-

Let's say for fun that a $5000 pair of studio monitors could go just as loud and deep. Would spending half of the difference between the $5k and the price of the Dutch & Dutch on home-made sound treatment sound better than the 8C, or would the 8C in an untreated room sound better?

Heck, even spending half of the difference on pre-made 4" Corning 703 sound panels and some Auralex Geofusors seems like you could accomplish a noticeable amount of treatment.
 

Soniclife

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I think speaker guys should listen more to headphone guys when they say that many speakers can't compete, especially with bass extension. The 8260 is the only thing besides a Phantom Reactor that is in the same league as my earphones.
I've never heard headphones compete with speakers for bass, have I heard the wrong headphones, or do people perceive headphone bass differently?
 

Purité Audio

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I think speaker guys should listen more to headphone guys when they say that many speakers can't compete, especially with bass extension. The 8260 is the only thing besides a Phantom Reactor that is in the same league as my earphones.

Also: Headphone guys should listen to speaker guys when they talk about soundstage, and stop worrying as much about the difference between the "soundstage" in headphones. We're talking about "minutial" differences between earphones the produce sound-stages that seem at most to be less than 5% of a pair of speakers with good positioning and a solid phantom center.

...Unless we're talking about binaural audio, which sounds better to me than any surround sound setup I'd heard. The Smyth Realizer was a very cool experience when I listened to it.

-Back on the topic of the 8C-

Let's say for fun that a $5000 pair of studio monitors could go just as loud and deep. Would spending half of the difference between the $5k and the price of the Dutch & Dutch on home-made sound treatment sound better than the 8C, or would the 8C in an untreated room sound better?

Heck, even spending half of the difference on pre-made 4" Corning 703 sound panels and some Auralex Geofusors seems like you could accomplish a noticeable amount of treatment.
I had 8260’s and matching 7270 subs, GLM software and a room full of acoustic treatment.
Much prefer the 8Cs.
keith
 

ferrellms

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God bless America.
The 8Cs and Kiis are really good Sal, I don’t know why the giant US companies can’t bring it something as innovative, and I know it must sting a little perhaps you should ask them?
Keith
I fervently hope (and believe), that the sonic superiority of active/DSP/cardioid speakers like Kii/Dutch/Beolab will be so obvious to listeners that larger speaker manufacturers with the bucks to follow the trend will do so, and at lower cost that peons like us can afford. The science is straightforward, objective measurements can be done easily, things can be copied. The question is "Is there is a market for top quality sound reproduction that can handle these prices?" and "How many folks in this market will actually listen for themselves instead of reading magazines that hype the often over-priced products of advertisers they depend on?" I am not so sure about either of the last 2 propositions as far as "audiophiles" are concerned. Pros with money will always pay for the best performance and understand the measurements that matter.
 

9radua1

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I fervently hope (and believe), that the sonic superiority of active/DSP/cardioid speakers like Kii/Dutch/Beolab will be so obvious to listeners that larger speaker manufacturers with the bucks to follow the trend will do so, and at lower cost that peons like us can afford. The science is straightforward, objective measurements can be done easily, things can be copied. The question is "Is there is a market for top quality sound reproduction that can handle these prices?" and "How many folks in this market will actually listen for themselves instead of reading magazines that hype the often over-priced products of advertisers they depend on?" I am not so sure about either of the last 2 propositions as far as "audiophiles" are concerned. Pros with money will always pay for the best performance and understand the measurements that matter.

That thesis is being tested by Buchardt Audio right now. Their A500 bookshelf with cardioid “tuning” and proprietary room correction is out this month. The A700 floorstanding version has just been announced.
 

Snarfie

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That thesis is being tested by Buchardt Audio right now. Their A500 bookshelf with cardioid “tuning” and proprietary room correction is out this month. The A700 floorstanding version has just been announced.
Quirius how this will measure and sound.
 

Snarfie

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Mads Buchardt postet their own preliminary measurements of the A500 in another thread on this site (perhaps the S400 thread).
I ment more how Amirm will test this speaker independently.
 

ttimer

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I fervently hope (and believe), that the sonic superiority of active/DSP/cardioid speakers like Kii/Dutch/Beolab will be so obvious to listeners that larger speaker manufacturers with the bucks to follow the trend will do so, and at lower cost that peons like us can afford. The science is straightforward, objective measurements can be done easily, things can be copied. The question is "Is there is a market for top quality sound reproduction that can handle these prices?" and "How many folks in this market will actually listen for themselves instead of reading magazines that hype the often over-priced products of advertisers they depend on?" I am not so sure about either of the last 2 propositions as far as "audiophiles" are concerned. Pros with money will always pay for the best performance and understand the measurements that matter.

I don't think those kinds of speakers will suffer from a lack of hype in the audio press and on the internet. After all, its cool new tech, its got performance, an app for fiddling and its got the kind of early-adopter-only/halo pricing to go with it. Of course it won't ever appeal to the conservative crowd of audiophiles, not just because it is new but also because it doesn't integrate with their existing equipment, has no resale value, no longevity and (so far) very, very limited choice in terms of optics and styling.
 

Snarfie

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I don't think those kinds of speakers will suffer from a lack of hype in the audio press and on the internet. After all, its cool new tech, its got performance, an app for fiddling and its got the kind of early-adopter-only/halo pricing to go with it. Of course it won't ever appeal to the conservative crowd of audiophiles, not just because it is new but also because it doesn't integrate with their existing equipment, has no resale value, no longevity and (so far) very, very limited choice in terms of optics and styling.

Hm I'm 61 an think I'm part of the conservative crowd of audiophiles I guess. When i corrected my old Vandersteen Model 1 speakers with room correction software i was in for a positive a shock. In 40 years time i did not hear for instance this dramatic improvement on Abbey Road from The Beatles regarding imaging an every singles instrument (especially the bass of Paul McCartney) an voices that suddenly sounded natural as a real band after 40 years. It has probably to do with my lousy room acoustics. But from than on I'm curious about everything that can improve my listening experiences using room correction. So i really don't care about mine current equipment that i have to change if necessary i'm welcome it.
 
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9radua1

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...plus many audiophiles now have multiple systems or a least multiple speakers for their system. I don’t think it’s halo pricing. It’s just the well-known value proposition from the pro world etching into (parts of) the consumer world and priced similarly.
 

Sal1950

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Hm I'm 61 an think I'm part of the conservative crowd of audiophiles I guess. When i corrected my old Vandersteen Model 1 speakers with room correction software i was in for a positive a shock. In 40 years time i did not hear for instance this dramatic improvement on Abbey Road from The Beatles regarding imaging an every singles instrument (especially the bass of Paul McCartney) an voices that suddenly sounded natural as a real band after 40 years. It has probably to do with my lousy room acoustics. But from than on I'm curious about everything that can improve my listening experiences using room correction. So i really don't care about mine current equipment that i have to change if necessary i'm welcome it.
Agreed, there's no magic inside these space age monkey coffins outside of the intelligent use of DSP/DRC.
Nothing that hasn't been equaled or surpassed by many before and since using separates and doing their own tuning.
 

Purité Audio

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While there is no single radically new technology inside the 8C it is the summation of various technologies that makes them so good,
constant directivity, completely full range, phase coherent , perfect step/group adjustable bass output, built in tone controls and EQ and all of that is reflected in their measurements and sound quality which are both superb.
Keith
 

9radua1

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Nothing that hasn't been equaled or surpassed by many before and since using separates and doing their own tuning.

Sure, but the aim is to not have separates and still achieve the compounding effects of SOTA speakers, subs, DACs, amps, and DRC. That’s their value.
 
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