Why do passive speakers still exist?

[restorer-john]

I've heard plenty of amps, integrated amps and receivers that have hiss at that distance too.

Absolutely true. AVRs are particularly bad due to the A/D-D/A, poor line stages, tons of noise from processors and poor amplification.

 

[Sancus]

I've heard plenty of amps, integrated amps and receivers that have hiss at that distance too. That I can handle but if it's like a snake in the room that's annoying.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are saying passives have no hiss. There's plenty of passive speaker + amp combinations that will make noise if you get close enough to hear it. As long as it's not audible at the listening position, who cares?

To be clear, I'm not defending things like the low end JBLs that are made to a price point, but describing Neumanns or Genelecs as hissing relative to passives is splitting a pointless semantic hair.

 

[richard12511]

Ok, I'm not suggesting the amps cause audible distortion (although if you look at the spec sheets for some of these amps, you'd have to imagine the levels of distortion are at least sailing pretty close to the wind).

It's the noise that I was talking about. I haven't experienced it myself (have never used any of the allegedly offending speakers), but so many people on with these speakers complain of it on ASR that I'd assumed it was bad enough to be obvious and disturbing.

Perhaps this is not the case?

No, some of them are definitely audible at the listening position when music isn't playing, like the JBLs. Though it doesn't bother me at all, I can understand why it might bother some. My old college roomate was super sensitive to all electronic hiss, and he'd get mad at us if we forgot to turn off the TV/AVR/Amps after we finished using them. I could hear them too(TV was the loudest), but it just never bothered me. Just different brains, I suppose. The one common noise around the house that does bother me a bit is the refrigerator. It's much louder than the JBLs(I can hear it on the other side of the house and through several doors). Also, it's not constant, which makes it more bothersome for my brain. Constant stuff I generally just get used to and never hear again unless I actively try to.

 

[richard12511]

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are saying passives have no hiss. There's plenty of passive speaker + amp combinations that will make noise if you get close enough to hear it. As long as it's not audible at the listening position, who cares?

To be clear, I'm not defending things like the low end JBLs that are made to a price point, but describing Neumanns or Genelecs as hissing relative to passives is splitting a pointless semantic hair.

My JTRs hiss, for sure. Kinda the norm for 100dB efficient speakers, at least in my experience.

 

[andreasmaaan]

No, some of them are definitely audible at the listening position when music isn't playing, like the JBLs. Though it doesn't bother me at all, I can understand why it might bother some. My old college roomate was super sensitive to all electronic hiss, and he'd get mad at us if we forgot to turn off the TV/AVR/Amps after we finished using them. I could hear them too(TV was the loudest), but it just never bothered me. Just different brains, I suppose. The one common noise around the house that does bother me a bit is the refrigerator. It's much louder than the JBLs(I can hear it on the other side of the house and through several doors). Also, it's not constant, which makes it more bothersome for my brain. Constant stuff I generally just get used to and never hear again unless I actively try to.

Thanks, that clarifies it. I still do wonder whether the manufacturers have made efforts to minimise it by padding tweeters (just out of curiosity really) and the noise is just that loud that nothing more can be done, or whether they decide it is not worth dealing with.

And I do wonder about the distortion. Some of these commonly used chip amps are producing >0.3% THD+N (and presumably also very high levels of IMD) in the high frequencies, even at <1W, which potentially starts challenging the tweeter for title of most distorting component in the chain.

But again, I wonder mostly out of curiosity....

EDIT: actually, I'm also wondering if anybody has tested some of these commonly used amps, e.g. TI3116?

Is the stuff I've circled primarily noise or distortion?

EDIT: actually I guess it must be distortion given it drops off at 10kHz, presumably due to filtering.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Let's face it, active speakers use bottom of the barrel amplification because they know nobody is holding them to account in all the usual amplifier performance parameters. They can get away with distortion levels that would be laughed out of the room, because the speaker drivers themselves have more distortion. The power output claims are ludicrous and blatantly deceptive, knowing nobody will test the internal amplifiers. The noise levels are generally very poor, hence every man and his deaf dog are complaining about audible hiss. The only exceptions are, ironically, the hypex plate amplifiers, which perform pretty well.

That may be the case for some manufacturers, and that is of course unfortunate. That doesn't disprove the general principle that an active speaker could (and should) be a better cost/value proposition than stand alone components. Hopefully more manufacturers will start to take this market segment seriously soon. But that the big brands focus too much on cost is of course good news for us small independent manufacturers.

 

[thewas]

Times change.

They sure do, but I don't see classic Hifi with a rack full of devices and passive loudspeakers ever becoming a mainstream market again like they were in the past.
The trend goes to usability, comfort and design and thus to one box solutions like wireless multiroom loudspeakers which at a touch on your smartphone play what you want to hear from your NAS or your streaming service like in the video segment Netflix also took over people buying DVD & Blurays.

 

[StefaanE]

I have acute hearing, and the tweeter hiss that is audible if I put my ears up to my speakers' tweeters doesn't bother me.

What gives tweeter hiss outsized importance in many minds is that it is obvious. If there is no music playing, one can readily hear tweeter hiss if one sticks one's ear up to the tweeter on am active speaker.

Distortion, by contrast, is alteration of the signal, so it can be heard only while something is playing. And even when it is heard, it may be nonobvious.

Nobody listens with their ears glued to the tweeter (I hope). And in my (limited) experience, all amplifiers produce audible hiss when one turns the volume up to 0dB on an analogue (especially the phono) input. But then the SPL at the listening position would be so high as to damage one’s hearing.
So when a speaker is audibly hissing when no music is playing, I’m sitting in my normal listening position and the level is set to my normal SPL (peaks at +/- 85dB), I wouldn’t consider it a HiFi device. The cheap powered Logitech computer speakers on my PC don’t hiss in these conditions, I would be amazed if studio equipment would be worse (i.e. be audible when merely switched on).

 

[q3cpma]

All those comments about reliability, hiss and confusing chipamp use with their implementation seem to conflate all brands together, which is just laughable.

There are so many wonderful passives speakers that it is unfathomable. I can't for the life of me imagine that if all else is equal and the speakers are identical, one passive with good electronics, one active with good electronics, you're not going to hear the difference.

You have more chances of hearing the advantages of the active crossover than the differences in the amplifiers; as long as clipping isn't reached, something much easier to do when you don't have the low sensitivity and load characteristics of a >= 3-way passive crossover.

I also very much agree that having the electronics embedded in the speakers has risks as well. I will guarantee you that nobody is getting 15 years problem free operation with their actives. One of them is going down. We still have passives and vintage electronics running for decades

There are plenty of old Genelec models running fine; even if these are class AB with linear power supplies. I just talked with someone using a surround setup made of 2 x 1024 (1979-92) and 3 x S30 (could be very recent, as the S30D stopped in 2006).
Note that I'm not advocating for electronics inside the speakers, even though in Genelec's aluminium cabinets' case, you get a heatsink the size of the speaker, so there's no better place for it.

Does anybody really think modest class D amps are going to have a long service life, over a decade?

Actually, I have no such worries about the amplifiers, SMPSes, on the other hand...

What will you do with an active that in six years breaks down and the company no longer can source things in the form factor to replace the internals problem free? You might be faced with a scenario where you have to jury rig a solution.

Once again, choose your brands well. I quote Genelec:
Today we still receive requests for repairs and spare parts for products manufactured in the early 1980s – and we are able to service most of them. We carry a substantial spare parts inventory for all the models manufactured during the company’s long history.
Spare parts availability is guaranteed for many years (but a minimum of 5 years) after production has been discontinued. In all cases, we will always provide service as long as we are able to source the appropriate spare parts.

I'm sure it's the same for most brands where you paid enough money for this problem (breakdown) to be significative.

Sure if you hate the space allocation or complexity of separates, fine, that is a problem, but a pretty darn first world problem.

Personally, I prefer active because, from an engineering point of view, it is The Right Way™ of doing it; or more accurately, the passive crossover is a kludge, a dirty solution that doesn't make sense anymore.
By the way, I also hate hiss, and even my 8030Cs could do with a bit less, though it's never annoying, even when not listening to music (I guess < 5 dB(A) at 1 m really isn't much).

tl;dr stop putting all active brands in the same bag, or we might as well do the same with B&W, Revel and Zu

 

[Frank Dernie]

The Amazon list shows consumer grade stuff. Nothing over $500 in top 100. I have a lot of the stuff in the top 10... but I am not going to use any of it for serious listening.

Consumers have moved to cheaper stuff for several reasons, mostly convenience, features, and acceptable (to most people) performance at low (less tham 500 dollars) prices.

I personally think there is a male gadget enthusiasm which only had hifi as an outlet 50 years ago, now there are computers, mobile phones, games consoles and home theatres for people to dabble in, at a range of prices, and the pure hifi market is now tiny, and probably dwindling.
None of my children are prepared to have big speakers at home and the money is spent on games consoles and VR headsets.

 

[oivavoi]

Interesting discussion!

I'm a big fan of active speakers, both for performance reasons and for practicality. For getting new folks onto the audio hobby, in the age of smartphones and soundbars, it's really the only way forward. Passive speakers exist because of path dependency, as was said, it's the dying kingdom of audio dinosaurs.

That said, I agree that hiss is a problem with many actives. My trusted old DM10 actives from now defunct British manufacturer AVI have no hiss at all when I turn up the gain from the source and turn down gain on the speakers. I listen to them in the near-field, and I can only hear a very slight hiss about 5 cm away from the tweeter - just like I would on most any passive speaker/amp combo. They are old-school actives though, with an analog active crossover and AB-amplifiers. Even in the absence of fancy DSP, and with a dispersion pattern that is probably less than ideal when listened to in the far-field, my totally subjective impression is that they possess some "active advantage": they have an immediacy and clarity that I don't encounter too often in passive speakers. It's like a veil is removed, compared to most passives (and some actives) I am familiar with.

I think that this is an area that may not show up in the ordinary measurements. My hunch is that the drivers simply react better to the signal from the amplifiers when the passive crossover is removed, there is less overshoot, somehow, following a musical impulse the reset-time is much shorter. This may be only subjective bias of cours, maybe I've just drank the cool-aid. Would be interested in knowing whether there is any real work on this.

And there are lots of other possibilites with actives, of course. I think there are good reasons why absolutely all small consumer speakers are active, because they need to press as much performanec out of the small drivers and enclosures as they can. The same potential also applies to larger drivers and enclosures.

But as said, hiss can be a problem. I have been bothered by that when listening to some high-end actives. Compared to my AVI's, I assume it's because DSP boards with self-noise are included in the signal path, and perhaps not much attention to gain structure. But with B&O's wonderful Beolab 50 and Beolab 90, or with the Grimm LS1, it's not a problem, so it can definitely be done. Hopefully this will be solved in most high-end actives down the road.

 

[ABall]

Just wanted to add a recent experience on this subject... I have a friend who definitely isn't an audiophile, I on the other hand have been modding hifi for my pleasure for over 20 years. This friend has a pair of Kef LS50 actives, he paid 2k for them and I see they are now 1200 quid! Bargain but he won't be happy trying to sell them! I sold him a pair of diy speakers that I bought on ebay and I let him borrow an amp i purchased for £40 then modified a little. Very long story short, he is going to sell the kefs and he absolutely loves them. Even though he has lost the pin point imaging that goes with a concentric design speaker like the Kef he has gained in my view a sound that is closer to the real thing, probably words that dont go down well here but he is 20 odd years younger than me so his ears still work and he doesn't know what an audiophile is. We can't really compare the 2 setups because the speakers from me are an MTM design which cost £1800 in parts alone so probably 4 times what the kefs cost if you break down the parts but one is diy with a 30wpc 30 year old amp and the other is Kef, should be no contest but he prefers the music that the passive set makes......

 

[Frank Dernie]

Don't you remember just five years ago where every person you saw on the street had Beats on their head?

Marketing and hence brand recognition trumps all for sales.
It is like people walking around in sportswear which would be 90% cheaper if it wasn't branded with their group's favourite label. Beats was a must have, it was more about being seen with the big "b" on the earcup than sound.
Cars are the same, huge expenditure on brand marketing and an amazingly loyal customer group who, in reality, would have no idea if it was the "best" car at all.

 

[thewas]

There is always a part of the consumer market that gravitates toward worse performing equipment. Don't you remember just five years ago where every person you saw on the street had Beats on their head?

So I don't feel like the sky is falling for those who want better because there's currently an interest in Bluetooth and wireless speakers and soundbars.

No one is telling that quality must be a downfall, for example some of the most currently sold wireless multiroom systems often sound better than most average Jo classic hifi systems of the 80s, the people having huge Infinity IRS etc where always a tiny exception.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Just wanted to add a recent experience on this subject... I have a friend who definitely isn't an audiophile, I on the other hand have been modding hifi for my pleasure for over 20 years. This friend has a pair of Kef LS50 actives, he paid 2k for them and I see they are now 1200 quid! Bargain but he won't be happy trying to sell them! I sold him a pair of diy speakers that I bought on ebay and I let him borrow an amp i purchased for £40 then modified a little. Very long story short, he is going to sell the kefs and he absolutely loves them. Even though he has lost the pin point imaging that goes with a concentric design speaker like the Kef he has gained in my view a sound that is closer to the real thing, probably words that dont go down well here but he is 20 odd years younger than me so his ears still work and he doesn't know what an audiophile is. We can't really compare the 2 setups because the speakers from me are an MTM design which cost £1800 in parts alone so probably 4 times what the kefs cost if you break down the parts but one is diy with a 30wpc 30 year old amp and the other is Kef, should be no contest but he prefers the music that the passive set makes......

I don't understand how you think it should be no contest if your speaker cost more in parts than his speaker did retail? It should be no contest the other way around, as apparently (and not surprisingly) is the case too.

 

[q3cpma]

Just wanted to add a recent experience on this subject... I have a friend who definitely isn't an audiophile, I on the other hand have been modding hifi for my pleasure for over 20 years. This friend has a pair of Kef LS50 actives, he paid 2k for them and I see they are now 1200 quid! Bargain but he won't be happy trying to sell them! I sold him a pair of diy speakers that I bought on ebay and I let him borrow an amp i purchased for £40 then modified a little. Very long story short, he is going to sell the kefs and he absolutely loves them. Even though he has lost the pin point imaging that goes with a concentric design speaker like the Kef he has gained in my view a sound that is closer to the real thing, probably words that dont go down well here but he is 20 odd years younger than me so his ears still work and he doesn't know what an audiophile is. We can't really compare the 2 setups because the speakers from me are an MTM design which cost £1800 in parts alone so probably 4 times what the kefs cost if you break down the parts but one is diy with a 30wpc 30 year old amp and the other is Kef, should be no contest but he prefers the music that the passive set makes......

You do realize that this has nothing to do with active or passive technology, right?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Lol
If that was the case, studios would have used only passive speakers with monster amps
Unless you want to tell me that all the professionals in the world that *create* the music you listen to are stupid and use screwed up inaccurate tools and your hi-fi home stereo speakers and amps are the benchmark.

Well pros use theirs as tools. They won't be sitting in a quiet room next to them when they aren't using them so, for them, a bit of hiss will always be masked by what they are working on.
I have 3 (very old now) Meridian actives as centre and surrounds and whilst they don't hiss the centre has a very low level mechanical hum which I mainly don't hear but if I notice it my only solution is to power it down because it will irritate me to death otherwise.
I have a quiet room and HATE music in the background for no particular reason, so I am sitting in what I wish to be silence, reading, a lot of the time so even the slightest noise is intolerable to me once noticed.
If I am listening to music any noise, be it hiss from amps or phono is totally drowned by the music.

 

[ABall]

I don't understand how you think it should be no contest if your speaker cost more in parts than his speaker did retail? It should be no contest the other way around, as apparently (and not surprisingly) is the case too.

The diy speakers didn't cost more than his, not when he purchased them anyway, that wasn't my point, forget how much the diy speakers cost then, they have over £700 worth of bling for crossovers which around here would be a complete waste of money anyway so my point is he prefers the sound of a 30 year old amp and some diy passives over his Kefs, I personally aren't surprised but a lot of people would choose the Kefs without hearing both because Kef are a company who make a living from this. It was my answer to the ops original questions, of course I believe this is not the only reason passives still exist as many have pointed out already....

 

[Frank Dernie]

I will guarantee you that nobody is getting 15 years problem free operation with their actives.

My Meridian M33s are 20 years old and are still working fine.

 

[ABall]

You do realize that this has nothing to do with active or passive technology, right?

Well I did say you can't compare the 2 systems but one is passive and one is active, perhaps I am looking at the ops question to simply sorry.