Why do passive speakers still exist?

[Ultrasonic]

I think the powered vs passive argument is the wrong end of the stick. Digital Room Control via DSP is the future. At this point there are few powered speakers that do active (vs preset) room correction. And they’re expensive. I’m an NAD/Dirac user and Dirac is why I went passive, at least for now. I could run my C658 in front of powered speakers but im already invested in passive. What I’d like to see is the ability to upload a Dirac correction to powered speakers. If that’s something available now then please let me know. Folks who aren’t interested in DRC could do without. Those who want it could buy a license. Not sure what kind of in-speaker computing power would be required but MiniDSP offers freestanding Dirac DRC for a reasonable price. So if say KEF could offer a powered LS50 with Dirac for an additional $400 I’d be very interested.

Personally I'd be inclined to keep my room 'correction' DSP solution separate/independent of speakers, since I feel there is far more likely to be advances in the former over time. I have this currently with my miniDSP SHD just as you do with your NAD C658, and either of which could work well connected directly to active speakers I'd have thought. As such I don't see why using these should particularly influence a decision to use active or passive speakers?

For me one appeal of active speakers with on-board amplification is actually the reduction of physical boxes, in my case losing a large power amp and with my SHD performing the remaining streamer/DSP/pre and if needed DAC duties in one neat box. I'd keep my fair sized subwoofer too though .

 

[antennaguru]

I have zero desire for active speakers, and especially for the prospect of running both AC power cords and signal interconnects to my speakers. OTOH, I am perfectly happy with passive speakers that I only have to run plain jane speaker wires to. I don't think I'm alone, nor that passive speakers are going away. Then again, I never stopped playing records and tapes, and was able to enjoy the good fortune of fire sale prices along the way...

 

[EJ3]

I have zero desire for active speakers, and especially for the prospect of running both AC power cords and signal interconnects to my speakers. OTOH, I am perfectly happy with passive speakers that I only have to run plain jane speaker wires to. I don't think I'm alone, nor that passive speakers are going away. Then again, I never stopped playing records and tapes, and was able to enjoy the good fortune of fire sale prices along the way...

I agree until there is transparent wireless to the active speakers. Then we will onIy need a power cord to the speaker. I run way more analog signals than digital. And I have never had an amp fail (perhaps because mine are well ventilated AND every 5 years or so get a thorough cleaning & checkup). My concern with actives has something to do with amp failures, A NOT SO UN-COMMON THING), which I presume may be from the lack of ventilation to the amp. At any rate, I have a duplicate of the same item for every piece of my stereo (including ones that have been modified), so it would be easy to swap in A speaker or any other individual unit part of the stereo. But, until active speakers, I had not seen many failures (unless it was brought on by individual actions) of anything stereo related. My system gets driven hard at times and since 1972 I have only had one failure of anything stereo related & that was cause by a lightning strike. Every room in my home has at least one large ACP un-interruptible power supply (my refrigerator has it's own). So I am prepared. But I don't like the idea of having one thing (perhaps an amp) taking out other pieces of equipment because they are an "all in one part" (such as an active speaker). The object being that I will not be without light, music, food or drink during a power outage.

 

[Reed]

Personally I'd be inclined to keep my room 'correction' DSP solution separate/independent of speakers, since I feel there is far more likely to be advances in the former over time. I have this currently with my miniDSP SHD just as you do with your NAD C658, and either of which could work well connected directly to active speakers I'd have thought. As such I don't see why using these should particularly influence a decision to use active or passive speakers?

For me one appeal of active speakers with on-board amplification is actually the reduction of physical boxes, in my case losing a large power amp and with my SHD performing the remaining streamer/DSP/pre and if needed DAC duties in one neat box. I'd keep my fair sized subwoofer too though .

The physical box issue is big to me as well. I wasn’t sure I’d like the M10 and I already had a Vidar. And what I wanted was Dirac. I did think about the SHD but I’ve owned NAD off and on for 30 years. The cheapest solution is one you already own. That said, I have a small room and to lose the hardware and have Dirac would be great.

 

[maverickronin]

The context of the discussion above was specifically about having back-up equipment when main equipment fails. If your comment is sticking to this subject then no, I don't agree. The cost is identical as I explained above and the difference in inconvenience is so minimal I just don't think it registers as any sort of factor to influence purchasing decisions personally. All we'd be talking about is possibly having to move one or two extra bits of kit at the point of a failure, and arguably this is offset by having to move fewer bits of kit when initially installing the active speakers.

Possibly though you were changing the subject to the cost of the actual repair? If you were then I'd be interested in comments from people with actual experience to chip in but on the face of it I don't see why there is such an obvious issue that it should obviously disuade active speaker ownership. The one concern that I do think is possibly worth at least considering is the chance of an active speaker not being repairable at all. I say this because if it did happen then the total loss would be greater since you'd be writing off both speakers and amp at that point, as opposed to just one element with a passive speaker system. However, is there evidence for this being a significant real concern? Certainly have a long history of supporting their active speaker range, and I'm increasingly getting the impression that Genelec do as well? For newer companies there will inevitably be less evidence to go on, but equally does anyone know of particular examples of this potential concern actually being a real issue?

Since the above is all specifically about faults I suppose it's possibly relevant that at least some active speakers include protection to stop speaker driver damage, and so inherently reduce the chance of faults happening in the first place.

I'll also just observe that active speakers are clearly used extensively in the professional studio environment. If there really were such a slam-dunk argument for actives being so obviously inferior from a cost and hassle perspective in the event of faults then why would this be? I don't see it myself.

I'm not pushing active speakers as some magical solution that everyone should suddenly switch to (they're far from new for starters!) but simply posting to discourage the concept being dismissed for flawed reasons.



I'm not quite sure what you had in mind by this question but I will just mention that it's pretty common practice for active subwoofer manufacturers to provide customers with replacement plate amps. I've not read anything about anyone having active speakers repaired to have any insight into to what extent any consumer swappable parts may be provided though.



You're commenting from the perspective of an amp failure being more likely than a speaker failure there I think? Possibly my experience is atypical but in my ~25 years of hifi use I've never actually had an amp fail but have had to replace a couple of speaker drivers. I do though agree that having to swap to back-up speakers will be more likely to have a more significant detrimental affect on sound quality than a back-up amp.

There's a lot of things there, but a few points.

Maybe it's the drivers we're not seeing eye to eye on? I don't consider them requiring backup equipment because with a couple of exceptions they don't wear out or spontaneously fail unless you blow them up yourself. OTOH, a lot of modern electronics do, mostly due to their switching power supplies using under (or questionably) speced capacitors. Old school class AB amps with linear power supplies are typically more reliable.

Also regarding replacement parts for active speakers, they aren't really any different from the plate amps in active subs besides having to open the speaker to get to them. With modern class D DSP actives it not any different than swapping a PSU or amp module from any of the generic Hypex and Purifi amps.

 

[antennaguru]

I have had three (3) different active subwoofers die (JBL, EV, and ACI). All three had blown plate amps, and identical dimension replacement plate amps were NOT available from the OEM. I did find replacement plate amps from Parts Express but they each had a different dimension plate than their predecessor, resulting in extensive modification that would have binned those subs for most people, but as I have access to sheet metal working facilities I was able to fabricate “filler plates” to make the replacement plate amps fully fit the holes left by the dead plate amps. The EV plate amp took out its woofer as well, so I needed to replace that one woofer as well. The worst part is that the sub cabinets are in general fragile particle board/mdf cubes. Just unscrewing and removing the bad plate amp takes its toll on the wood byproduct cabinet, let alone the redrilling for the replacement plate amp’s different hole pattern, and the fabricated filler plate. Gobs of silicone sealant helped this time, but will hinder the next replacement(s).

 

[A Surfer]

I see this sort of argument a lot but I don't really think it holds up. If any component of a passive speaker based system has a fault then you either have no sound or you need to have a back-up. Any part of a system can fail so you need a complete back-up system.

Have you heard any/many active speakers out of interest? I'll be honest the technical advantages inherently appeal to me but as I posted above my interest was piqued first of all on the basis of being impressed by what I heard.

It was never my point to question how good an active design can sound. I question the wisdom of having the speaker and amplifiers all in one and I continue to do so. Speakers in my more than 25 years of audio rarely fail, they get blown. Amplifiers are generally quite reliable I agree, but I have had more problems with them, and anecdotally I have heard of many such failures, more so than with speakers.

That is my point of hesitation. If an active speaker fails what will the cost be to the user to ship it back, maybe even twice if it is out of warranty? That is the question I have and answering it by raising a counter question is really not answering it, or even addressing it at all. I again feel my assertion that it is generally cheaper to drop a back up amplifier into a system with passives (of course there are so many permeations I know so no absolutes). If you have an active speaker failure you conceivably have to now replace a DAC, an amp and the speakers all at the same time.

Again, I am not suggesting that actives are inherently less reliable, but it is undeniable that there are unique and far reaching risks if something does go wrong.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I have had three (3) different active subwoofers die (JBL, EV, and ACI). All three had blown plate amps, and identical dimension replacement plate amps were NOT available from the OEM. I did find replacement plate amps from Parts Express but they each had a different dimension plate than their predecessor, resulting in extensive modification that would have binned those subs for most people, but as I have access to sheet metal working facilities I was able to fabricate “filler plates” to make the replacement plate amps fully fit the holes left by the dead plate amps. The EV plate amp took out its woofer as well, so I needed to replace that one woofer as well. The worst part is that the sub cabinets are in general fragile particle board/mdf cubes. Just unscrewing and removing the bad plate amp takes its toll on the wood byproduct cabinet, let alone the redrilling for the replacement plate amp’s different hole pattern, and the fabricated filler plate. Gobs of silicone sealant helped this time, but will hinder the next replacement(s).

This sounds like bad business practice and poor product design rather than an inherent problem with active components. An informed buyer should inquire how these things work before purchasing a product. Availability of spare parts, ease of repair, etc. It's not difficult to build serviceable active subwoofers and speakers.

 

[Ultrasonic]

That is my point of hesitation. If an active speaker fails what will the cost be to the user to ship it back, maybe even twice if it is out of warranty?

On this specific point I can see there will be occasions where shipping costs might be higher for returning a speaker rather than an amplifier but much more so if we're talking floorstanding speakers than standmounts. My current power amp is pretty large and weighs about 18 kg (40 lb) and so would likely cost more to ship than a standmount speaker.

Edit: and as noted above from the subwoofer example there may well be the possibility to send out replacement amps to customers and so avoid having to ship the speaker in the first place.

 

[antennaguru]

This sounds like bad business practice and poor product design rather than an inherent problem with active components. An informed buyer should inquire how these things work before purchasing a product. Availability of spare parts, ease of repair, etc. It's not difficult to build serviceable active subwoofers and speakers.

Great to just blame the buyer for not making an informed decision! Each OEM was a reputable company, so what else can you do beyond that? I know how active subs work and no OEM shares their future plans.

I believe the problem was that in each case the sub was at least 5 years old at the point of failure of the plate amp, and the OEM had moved on to new sub model(s) with different shape/size plate amps and thus replacement plate amps for the subs I had were no longer available. I see this as endemic because the plate amps in use by the OEM will be continually evolving based on purchase price and availability decisions by the OEM. The end-user will be left with an unsupported orphaned product, and only those with extensive repair capabilities will be able to save the product - so most will end up in the landfill. If I had to take these subs to a third party repair service the cost would have been too high for it to be worthwhile to repair them. Again, each OEM I had chosen was a reputable company.

 

[mhardy6647]

Great to just blame the buyer for not making an informed decision! Each OEM was a reputable company, so what else can you do beyond that? I know how active subs work and no OEM shares their future plans.

I believe the problem was that in each case the sub was at least 5 years old at the point of failure of the plate amp, and the OEM had moved on to new sub model(s) with different shape/size plate amps and thus replacement plate amps for the subs I had were no longer available. I see this as endemic because the plate amps in use by the OEM will be continually evolving based on purchase price and availability decisions by the OEM. The end-user will be left with an unsupported orphaned product, and only those with extensive repair capabilities will be able to save the product - so most will end up in the landfill. If I had to take these subs to a third party repair service the cost would have been too high for it to be worthwhile to repair them. Again, each OEM I had chosen was a reputable company.

This post, I would opine., dovetails awfully nicely with this thread:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...typical-lifespan-of-actives-v-passives.24906/

 

[sigbergaudio]

Great to just blame the buyer for not making an informed decision! Each OEM was a reputable company, so what else can you do beyond that? I know how active subs work and no OEM shares their future plans.

I believe the problem was that in each case the sub was at least 5 years old at the point of failure of the plate amp, and the OEM had moved on to new sub model(s) with different shape/size plate amps and thus replacement plate amps for the subs I had were no longer available. I see this as endemic because the plate amps in use by the OEM will be continually evolving based on purchase price and availability decisions by the OEM. The end-user will be left with an unsupported orphaned product, and only those with extensive repair capabilities will be able to save the product - so most will end up in the landfill. If I had to take these subs to a third party repair service the cost would have been too high for it to be worthwhile to repair them. Again, each OEM I had chosen was a reputable company.

It was not my intention to blame the buyer, and I did start out with "sounds like bad business practice and poor product design". It would make sense for the manufacturer to gather some kind of statistics on failure rate, and keep some plate amps in stock despite the product no longer being on the market. But it's of course a difference between a five year old product and a twenty year old product. At some point I guess you can't expect the manufacturer to provide replacement parts any longer, and these days I assume many manufacturers keep cutting cost to the point where they don't stock spare parts for discontinued products. The price point of the product may matter here as well. If all sold products are beyond warranty, and replacement parts would cost close to the what the product is worth, it may not be deemed worthwhile to provide it.

All that being said, for every person with a story about a defective plate amp, there are a lot of people with one still working. Personally I've had a number of subs both old and new and never had a plate amp fail. My dad has an old B&W sub that must be at least 15 years, still going strong, etc. And as mentioned earlier in the thread, active monitors are the norm in professional studios, they are typically used daily for years and years without breaking down.

 

[antennaguru]

It was not my intention to blame the buyer, and I did start out with "sounds like bad business practice and poor product design". It would make sense for the manufacturer to gather some kind of statistics on failure rate, and keep some plate amps in stock despite the product no longer being on the market. But it's of course a difference between a five year old product and a twenty year old product. At some point I guess you can't expect the manufacturer to provide replacement parts any longer, and these days I assume many manufacturers keep cutting cost to the point where they don't stock spare parts for discontinued products. The price point of the product may matter here as well. If all sold products are beyond warranty, and replacement parts would cost close to the what the product is worth, it may not be deemed worthwhile to provide it.

All that being said, for every person with a story about a defective plate amp, there are a lot of people with one still working. Personally I've had a number of subs both old and new and never had a plate amp fail. My dad has an old B&W sub that must be at least 15 years, still going strong, etc. And as mentioned earlier in the thread, active monitors are the norm in professional studios, they are typically used daily for years and years without breaking down.

Yes, I have two other subs that have never failed. They are still outnumbered by the three failures.

Maybe the industry should set standard sizes and hole patterns for plate amps?!?! Then it wouldn't be a big deal to replace them in the future. In my case, I had to re-engineer fitting new replacement plate amps to the different size holes and screw patterns left by the dead plate amps. I have access to sheet metal working facilities so I was able make filler plates, but few have this capability. In the end I doubt standardized plate amps would ever happen, as that would be an exercise in herding cats. Not to mention those cats like to generate new sales when their 5 year old subs go obsolete.

My favorite "active" sub has a pair of individual subwoofer speaker units with one external stereo sub controller that has all of the various settings for operating the stereo subs and it has line level outputs to run to the power amp(s) of your choice. It's an almost 30 year old IRS and outperforms every sub made today, and won't go obsolete in a mere 5 years.

 

[Ultrasonic]

My favorite "active" sub has a pair of individual subwoofer speaker units with one external stereo sub controller that has all of the various settings for operating the stereo subs and it has line level outputs to run to the power amp(s) of your choice. It's an almost 30 year old IRS and outperforms every sub made today,

That's a seriously bold claim!

 

[antennaguru]

That's a seriously bold claim!

Yep, but true.

Take a look at the various videos of Paul McGowan's comments about the IRS. Then of course there were always HP's comments about the IRS. Arnie Nudell was a genius!

 

[sigbergaudio]

I would also suggest that unfortunately there's a marketing problem here, as in a product being "servicable" isn't really a great selling point for a number of reasons. It's not a very hot topic as a sales pitch:
"If it breaks down it's easy to fix!"
"That sounds good..wait a minute, what do you mean break down? Is it going to break down?"

Also, I suspect (without having any data) that a majority of products will have moved on to second ownership before breaking down (at least breaking down outside of warranty). Which means the person who ends up with a defective product isn't the person who originally bought it, further cementing the fact that it's of little use to market the serviceability to the buyer of the new product.

Third, people are sadly getting used to defective products not being repairable, and just something to throw away. People want as cheap as humanely possible, which at some point will come at the the expense of quality, durability and repairability. Spending extra time and money for smart solutions to make it easy to fix, and/or to keep old parts in stock, is all things that the customer somehow needs to pay for. If I skip on all that, I can sell a cheaper product.

 

[Ultrasonic]

I do think service support becomes more important for more expensive items. On performance grounds I would have been attracted to Rythmik subwoofers but a lack of UK distributer (where I live) and therefore support made me rule them out in favour of Power Sound Audio (who do have a UK distributer and associated easier support).

 

[EJ3]

If I (or someone I know) cannot fix it (cars, homes, boats, motorcycles, audio/video equipment, et,) then I don't own it. Especially if it 'NEEDS, to be connected to the World Wide Web.

 

[A Surfer]

... Spending extra time and money for smart solutions to make it easy to fix, and/or to keep old parts in stock, is all things that the customer somehow needs to pay for. If I skip on all that, I can sell a cheaper product.

Absolutely, their needs to be balance, and there must also be a robust effort to ensure as many of the components used have a viable, economically viable, recycling stream. That is what is really missing, a concerted effort to regulate into the marketplace through investment, incentives and penalties, a viable recycling stream whereby the collected waste products are actually of value and worth recycling.

I also agree that customers need to be willing to pay more for longevity, but sadly that genie is out of the bottle and it will take a great deal of social engineering to change that. People not only expect low prices, we are addicted to consumption so telling people to consume less because it is the right thing to do is unlikely to succeed. I used to run an electronic waste depot and had the opportunity to learn some about this issue (although I am far, far from an expert). I have also had more than 25 years of sales experience in quite a few settings so I am also pretty well schooled in why, what and how people buy. Changing consumers will be exceedingly difficult therefore the best option is controlling the goods that they can buy making them more sustainable and more recyclable.

 

[EJ3]

Absolutely, their needs to be balance, and there must also be a robust effort to ensure as many of the components used have a viable, economically viable, recycling stream. That is what is really missing, a concerted effort to regulate into the marketplace through investment, incentives and penalties, a viable recycling stream whereby the collected waste products are actually of value and worth recycling.

I also agree that customers need to be willing to pay more for longevity, but sadly that genie is out of the bottle and it will take a great deal of social engineering to change that. People not only expect low prices, we are addicted to consumption so telling people to consume less because it is the right thing to do is unlikely to succeed. I used to run an electronic waste depot and had the opportunity to learn some about this issue (although I am far, far from an expert). I have also had more than 25 years of sales experience in quite a few settings so I am also pretty well schooled in why, what and how people buy. Changing consumers will be exceedingly difficult therefore the best option is controlling the goods that they can buy making them more sustainable and more recyclable.

I recycle by repairing, upgrading & or repurposing. If I cannot do at least one of those things to my purchase in the future, then I really have to justify my need for the product to myself. The vast majority of my stereo equipment is from the 1970's-1990's with a very small amount being from 2020 or 2021. When I was a child, in 1965 my home had central vacuuming and an intercom/baby monitor system. Sue to my diligence in repairs, they both still work. Only when I cannot repair, recycle or repurpose, do I resort to recycling as it is commonly thought of. But we have been taught over many years to "get the best price, be a consumerist and go for the latest (usually throwaway) fad". As you have stated, that habit will be very, very, hard to change.