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Why a new dedicated SACD player has more noticeable sound quality difference than HDMI-I2S with new external DACs?

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MasterApex

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Over the weekend, we brought together our gears and run experiment with HDMI-I2S on a few external DACs to hear the comparison among:
  1. Oppo 105 SACD Player XLR output
  2. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to S.M.S.L. D400EX - XLR Output
  3. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to Denafrips Venus II 12th - XLR Output
  4. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk1 - XLR Output
  5. Technics SL-G700 SACD Player XLR output
Pre-Amp: Denafrips Athena
Amplifier: Two Mark Levinson 333 Bi-Amp
Speakers: A Pair of B&W N801
Room: Acoustically treated
Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.
We took note so the pre-amp volume setting are different for each playback

Observations:
Slight sound characteristic differences among 2/3/4 (HDMI output)
#1 the sound is distinctly different
#5 the sound is distinctly different

Why we notice more audible difference between 1) and 5) , and very slight among 2/3/4?
Does the un-clocked HDMI-I2S interface introduce more jitter such that a dedicated SACD player will have better jitter control on its clocked SACD disc read signal?
 
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MasterApex said:
Over the weekend, we brought together our gears and run experiment with HDMI-I2S on a few external DACs to hear the comparison among:
  1. Oppo 105 SACD Player XLR output
  2. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to S.M.S.L. D400EX - XLR Output
  3. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to Denafrips Venus II 12th - XLR Output
  4. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk1 - Output
  5. Technics SL-G700 SACD Player XLR output
Pre-Amp: Denafrips Athena
Amplifier: Two Mark Levinson 333 Bi-Amp
Speakers: A Pair of B&W N801
Room: Acoustically treated
Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.
We took note so the pre-amp volume setting are different for each playback

Observations:
Slight sound characteristic differences among 2/3/4 (HDMI output)
1) the sound is distinctly different
5) the sound is distinctly different

Why we notice more audible difference between 1) and 5) , and very slight among 2/3/4?
Does the un-clocked HDMI-I2S interface introduce more jitter such that a dedicated SACD player will have better jitter control on its clocked SACD disc read signal?
Click to expand...
What is the audible difference?
 
We were just listening to the audio presentation.
Just like how one can hear the difference between SACD disc vs CD disc layer of the same album.
I was sharing, asking why in case someone here have experienced the same observations and perhaps have knowledge on technical explanation to our observations.
 
From what I see you are comparing an oppo with a Technics system. SACD which could be affected by jitter,
That’s why I would use a USB based connect to DACs
Regards 1,5 internal clocking maybe better than when using the external reclocking.
 
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Usually we use a test CD and record the result then compare in double blind.
Personally I use a Sony BDP-S6700 player connected to an external DAC by HDMI to play the half dozen classic SACDs I have.
The only interest of the support is the 4-channel sound so it's imperative to connect it to a home theater.
 
MasterApex said:
We were just listening to the audio presentation.
Just like how one can hear the difference between SACD disc vs CD disc layer of the same album.
I was sharing, asking why in case someone here have experienced the same observations and perhaps have knowledge on technical explanation to our observations.
Click to expand...
Without controls in the listening tests to eliminate the known confounding factors we can't be sure there's an audible difference at all. Any further discussion is speculation about something that may not exist.

In one controlled test comparing 44/16 to HiRes formats they assumed the 44/16 and HiRes were using the same mix. It turned out some were and others weren't, and that listeners only heard a difference when the mix was different. The same may be true of SACD and CD layers, but I don't know whether anyone has checked.
 
somebodyelse said:
Without controls in the listening tests to eliminate the known confounding factors we can't be sure there's an audible difference at all. Any further discussion is speculation about something that may not exist.

In one controlled test comparing 44/16 to HiRes formats they assumed the 44/16 and HiRes were using the same mix. It turned out some were and others weren't, and that listeners only heard a difference when the mix was different. The same may be true of SACD and CD layers, but I don't know whether anyone has checked.
Click to expand...
I can also confirm that there are differences in the mastering between the SACD and CD layers on many SACDs. Even individual CDs or Hi-Res files/streams are often mastered differently than SACD.
 
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Can someone explain why it's so easy to think jitter is a big issue? Especially given that from day one with CDs it was not. Given that when real tests of audibility are done jitter needs to be a couple orders of magnitude larger than really high jitter devices.
 
MasterApex said:
Over the weekend, we brought together our gears and run experiment with HDMI-I2S on a few external DACs to hear the comparison among:
  1. Oppo 105 SACD Player XLR output
  2. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to S.M.S.L. D400EX - XLR Output
  3. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to Denafrips Venus II 12th - XLR Output
  4. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk1 - XLR Output
  5. Technics SL-G700 SACD Player XLR output
Pre-Amp: Denafrips Athena
Amplifier: Two Mark Levinson 333 Bi-Amp
Speakers: A Pair of B&W N801
Room: Acoustically treated
Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.
We took note so the pre-amp volume setting are different for each playback

Observations:
Slight sound characteristic differences among 2/3/4 (HDMI output)
#1 the sound is distinctly different
#5 the sound is distinctly different

Why we notice more audible difference between 1) and 5) , and very slight among 2/3/4?
Does the un-clocked HDMI-I2S interface introduce more jitter such that a dedicated SACD player will have better jitter control on its clocked SACD disc read signal?
Click to expand...
What are you using to convert HDMI to I2S? An external box? An internal mod in the Oppo?
Do you have equipment to measure jitter? I ask because you seem to put the blame on jitter for the perceived differences.
 
MasterApex said:
Why we notice more audible difference between 1) and 5) , and very slight among 2/3/4?
Click to expand...

Hard to tell without doing measurements on all setups.

Most obvious suspect would be a lack of proper level matching... or the always pesky presence of cognitive bias.

Maybe one or more of the setups do some sort of signal signal processing that mess up the frequency response. Or maybe they add copious amounts of distortion, for instance by clipping the signal or having some silly non-linear "audiophile" output stage.
 
 
MasterApex said:
I am asking whether it was jitter or something that I don't yet know , not stating it was jitter.
There are a few of us (me and friends who owns respective gears) who confirmed the observation stated above.

The HDMI to I2S is an external box , we got from eBay such as this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/314981678249?itmmeta=01J40948BM8BPTM3Z21XJHBQZM&hash=item49565efca9:g:MGYAAOSwOW9lXvCp&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA4H9ND85T1GiiUy/mU6lnYqczjNaSMyW0iquc9P+wjw67j0HCW6jX7ZbKTrklEsaV70rH5lfM8esIUpwBUQaO3fhx0zjZUpbUhh7MURQBMCyfIjK1PeYrowXv7lRthuRdc0X3BeScUeM3WbY6ZswEzeJ+4KpRg1ciWd9YRslSCZVE41hu0hb02aM0k5PPX8DO5ah8FXhxEH3qSNAjRvPt0AcoLD7YG+/Esc1D0CJWwrsc4eeydq0mLxKjrjtYacUMeMu7T5MC2g+6NRlE9/h8grigt7EV47IKH/Wq/vbrfiff|tkp:BFBM9oWRiaBk
Click to expand...

I just came across measurement on this HDMI-I2S converter.
This may explain why there is very subtle differences among the external DACs after going thru this converter therefore a dedicated SACD player has more obvious sound quality difference (did not suffer from the noise introduced by converter)
www.audiosciencereview.com

HDMI to IIS/Coax DoP Converter

This is a review and detailed measurements of an HDMI to Coax/Toslink and IIs interface converter with support for DoP format. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $103. As you see, there is no brand name on it. Here is a link to the ebay listing...
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
 
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MasterApex said:
Over the weekend, we brought together our gears and run experiment with HDMI-I2S on a few external DACs to hear the comparison among:
  1. Oppo 105 SACD Player XLR output
  2. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to S.M.S.L. D400EX - XLR Output
  3. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to Denafrips Venus II 12th - XLR Output
  4. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk1 - XLR Output
  5. Technics SL-G700 SACD Player XLR output
Pre-Amp: Denafrips Athena
Amplifier: Two Mark Levinson 333 Bi-Amp
Speakers: A Pair of B&W N801
Room: Acoustically treated
Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.
We took note so the pre-amp volume setting are different for each playback

Observations:
Slight sound characteristic differences among 2/3/4 (HDMI output)
#1 the sound is distinctly different
#5 the sound is distinctly different

Why we notice more audible difference between 1) and 5) , and very slight among 2/3/4?
Does the un-clocked HDMI-I2S interface introduce more jitter such that a dedicated SACD player will have better jitter control on its clocked SACD disc read signal?
Click to expand...
I'd simply tend to suspect fault in your comparison setup/technique/measurement than any actual audible differences.
 
MasterApex said:
Observations:
Slight sound characteristic differences among 2/3/4 (HDMI output)
#1 the sound is distinctly different
#5 the sound is distinctly different

Why we notice more audible difference between 1) and 5) , and very slight among 2/3/4?
Does the un-clocked HDMI-I2S interface introduce more jitter such that a dedicated SACD player will have better jitter control on its clocked SACD disc read signal?
Click to expand...
Would be very easy to record the differences.
 
solderdude said:
Analog out is very easy to record, then the recordings could be listened to and analyzed at length.
Click to expand...
Of course it's possible, but not with the poster's technique/gear is what I was referring to
 
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