Why a new dedicated SACD player has more noticeable sound quality difference than HDMI-I2S with new external DACs?

[solderdude]

Why wouldn't it be possible to simply record the analog (XLR) out of each 'setup' ?
When differences could be heard they can be recorded.
Level matching can be done later on.
Of course the same recording/file has to be used each time.

We are probably looking at the issue at hand from different perspective.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Why wouldn't it be possible to simply record the analog (XLR) out of each 'setup' ?
When differences could be heard they can be recorded.
Level matching can be done later on.
Of course the same recording/file has to be used each time.

We are probably looking at the issue at hand from different perspective.

I think Crispy just means that MasterApex doesn't have the gear to record the analog signal. No disagreement that it would work and be useful. If that is not the case then the OP could tell us that.

 

[Killingbeans]

This may explain why there is very subtle differences among the external DACs after going thru this converter therefore a dedicated SACD player has more obvious sound quality difference (did not suffer from the noise introduced by converter)

Still only speculation.

This is really a futile exercise without measurements for verification.

If the differences are as distinct as you claim them to be, it won't require a massive investment to be reach a point where you can capture them sufficiently.

 

[JeremyFife]

It's been said before, but;
#1 different masters
#2 different levels

Sort those two out and you can start making valid comparisons.
It's probably not worth bothering though

 

[MasterApex]

How would this new thread correlate with your existing thread "Why SACD Disc playback sounds better (less jitter?) than its equivalent ripped DSF file / streaming playback"?

Thinking about it, perhaps the correlation is on the "paths" of the "digital signal"?

For DISC playback within its own DAC output
A. after optical reading of the digital signal, the circuit path quality is controlled within the PCB of the SACD player, DACs output to XLR

For DISC playback with external DAC output :
B. after optical reading of the digital signal and the circuit path quality controlled within the PCB of SACD player; however there is additional signal touch as it gets out to HDMI port, touches by "external HDMI-I2S converter" (per Amir's measurement, it introduces extra noise) , go to I2S input of External DAC , processed by DAC internal circuits out from its XLR.
Perhaps the extra noise is masking the difference among the DACs during my playback

For DSF/DSD file playback: in my experiments, I have done multiple paths and perhaps each path is "noiser" than internal SACD player (path A) ?
1. DSF file on SATA SSD going to [SATA -USB] doggle, then oppo internal USB signal path that is different from the optical path (Path A)?
2. DSF file on PC SSD, going to [PC USB interface], then to [USB input of external DAC], then [internal DAC circuit] to its XLR out
3. DSF file on PC SSD, going to [PC Ethernet interface], then to [DLNA ethernet player input] then [player internal circuit DAC] then to its XLR out

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thinking about it, perhaps the correlation is on the "paths" of the "digital signal"?

For DISC playback within its own DAC output
A. after optical reading of the digital signal, the circuit path quality is controlled within the PCB of the SACD player, DACs output to XLR

For DISC playback with external DAC output :
B. after optical reading of the digital signal and the circuit path quality controlled within the PCB of SACD player; however there is additional signal touch as it gets out to HDMI port, touches by "external HDMI-I2S converter" (per Amir's measurement, it introduces extra noise) , go to I2S input of External DAC , processed by DAC internal circuits out from its XLR.
Perhaps the extra noise is masking the difference among the DACs during my playback

For DSF/DSD file playback: in my experiments, I have done multiple paths and perhaps each path is "noiser" than internal SACD player (path A) ?
1. DSF file on SATA SSD going to [SATA -USB] doggle, then oppo internal USB signal path that is different from the optical path (Path A)?
2. DSF file on PC SSD, going to [PC USB interface], then to [USB input of external DAC], then [internal DAC circuit] to its XLR out
3. DSF file on PC SSD, going to [PC Ethernet interface], then to [DLNA ethernet player input] then [player internal circuit DAC] then to its XLR out

You will never find the answer this way until you measure the results of each of those paths. The chances are the noise is still so low in level it is making no difference, but measurements would show whether or not this is the case.

 

[MasterApex]

I was sharing audible observation in hope for someone else who can discover what and how to measure.
Then it is will be easier to shop & compare instead of the experiments we did.

We know what we heard ; it is ok to doubt or challenge our observation ; I hope one day the doubter has opportunity to hear it himself.

My other hobby is to do HPDE (High Performance Driving Event).
We have measurement of Porsche 718 GT4 with only 414HP, Power/Weight Ratio of 285HP/ton, classic MacPherson strut suspension vs Corvette C8 Stingray with 495HP, Power/Weight ratio of 301HP/ton, double-dual wishbone suspension.
By all technical measurement, the Porsche GT4 is less , but in driving both of them, the Porsche inspires more confidence and provides better laptime.
Point being, there is something else we have not figured out what / how to measure to account for this observation.

 

[SIY]

I was sharing audible observation

No, the one thing you DIDN'T do was to see if your perceived difference actually was an audible one.

 

[VintageFlanker]

We know what we heard

Classic.

By all technical measurement, the Porsche GT4 is less , but in driving both of them, the Porsche inspires more confidence and provides better laptime.

Laptime is, actually, objective data.

Point being, there is something else we have not figured out what

Yes : proper controls.

 

[GXAlan]

Get an E1DA Cosmos ADC, record the output and we will help you figure it out.

I have learned a lot myself in the process, and I am one who will absolute defend that DACs* and amps can sound different and work to demonstrate it with ABX testing and DeltaWave testing.

It just happens that the differences are small and subtle and if you just bite the bullet and put it into speakers and DSP, the differences are bigger.

 

[Joffy1780]

I was sharing audible observation in hope for someone else who can discover what and how to measure.
Then it is will be easier to shop & compare instead of the experiments we did.

We know what we heard ; it is ok to doubt or challenge our observation ; I hope one day the doubter has opportunity to hear it himself.

My other hobby is to do HPDE (High Performance Driving Event).
We have measurement of Porsche 718 GT4 with only 414HP, Power/Weight Ratio of 285HP/ton, classic MacPherson strut suspension vs Corvette C8 Stingray with 495HP, Power/Weight ratio of 301HP/ton, double-dual wishbone suspension.
By all technical measurement, the Porsche GT4 is less , but in driving both of them, the Porsche inspires more confidence and provides better laptime.
Point being, there is something else we have not figured out what / how to measure to account for this observation.

I was sharing audible observation in hope for someone else who can discover what and how to measure.
Then it is will be easier to shop & compare instead of the experiments we did.

We know what we heard ; it is ok to doubt or challenge our observation ; I hope one day the doubter has opportunity to hear it himself.

My other hobby is to do HPDE (High Performance Driving Event).
We have measurement of Porsche 718 GT4 with only 414HP, Power/Weight Ratio of 285HP/ton, classic MacPherson strut suspension vs Corvette C8 Stingray with 495HP, Power/Weight ratio of 301HP/ton, double-dual wishbone suspension.
By all technical measurement, the Porsche GT4 is less , but in driving both of them, the Porsche inspires more confidence and provides better laptime.
Point being, there is something else we have not figured out what / how to measure to account for this observation.

The 2 cars have so many other variables, so to make only the power comparisons is misleading. The Porsche has less power, but most racetracks aren't drag strips and they have to do more than accelerate in a straight line.

 

[napfkuchen]

I once had a CD and a SACD player, and also a CD player with a tube preamplifier. Plus several albums on CD, SACD and XRCD. However, that was before I healed from gear acquisition syndrome.
Different masters can make a difference, that's it.

 

[stevoppo]

Over the weekend, we brought together our gears and run experiment with HDMI-I2S on a few external DACs to hear the comparison among:

1. Oppo 105 SACD Player XLR output
2. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to S.M.S.L. D400EX - XLR Output
3. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to Denafrips Venus II 12th - XLR Output
4. Oppo 105 HDMI-I2S to PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk1 - XLR Output
5. Technics SL-G700 SACD Player XLR output

Pre-Amp: Denafrips Athena
Amplifier: Two Mark Levinson 333 Bi-Amp
Speakers: A Pair of B&W N801
Room: Acoustically treated
Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.
We took note so the pre-amp volume setting are different for each playback

Observations:
Slight sound characteristic differences among 2/3/4 (HDMI output)
#1 the sound is distinctly different
#5 the sound is distinctly different

Why we notice more audible difference between 1) and 5) , and very slight among 2/3/4?
Does the un-clocked HDMI-I2S interface introduce more jitter such that a dedicated SACD player will have better jitter control on its clocked SACD disc read signal?

 

[stevoppo]

Hi MasterApex,
I am trying to connect my OPPO BD105 to my DAC via I2S, but no sound. Is it the HDMI 2 Output the I2S output? Thanks.

 

[Roland68]

Hi MasterApex,
I am trying to connect my OPPO BD105 to my DAC via I2S, but no sound. Is it the HDMI 2 Output the I2S output? Thanks.

The OPPO BD105 only has an HDMI output, not an i2s output. The HDMI connector on the BD105 is just HDMI and has nothing to do with i2s.
To connect it to your DAC via i2s, you need to use an HDMI to i2s (over LVDS) converter.

There were also additional boards for various Oppo players that directly tapped i2s and output it, but you have to google whether these boards are also available for the BD105.

 

[Roland68]

Hi MasterApex,
I am trying to connect my OPPO BD105 to my DAC via I2S, but no sound. Is it the HDMI 2 Output the I2S output? Thanks.

I just remembered who offered the modules. However, the OPPO BD105 is not listed, which means nothing.
Send him an email.
I2S Card Upgrade

 

[MasterApex]

Hi MasterApex,
I am trying to connect my OPPO BD105 to my DAC via I2S, but no sound. Is it the HDMI 2 Output the I2S output? Thanks.

I used an eBay external HDMI to I2S converter for DACs that requires i2S input

Later I read that this external HDMI to i2S is introducing noise so may explain my audio result experience.

 

[stevoppo]

The OPPO BD105 only has an HDMI output, not an i2s output. The HDMI connector on the BD105 is just HDMI and has nothing to do with i2s.
To connect it to your DAC via i2s, you need to use an HDMI to i2s (over LVDS) converter.

There were also additional boards for various Oppo players that directly tapped i2s and output it, but you have to google whether these boards are also available for the BD105.

Roland68, thanks for your professional advices.

 

[stevoppo]

I used an eBay external HDMI to I2S converter for DACs that requires i2S input

Later I read that this external HDMI to i2S is introducing noise so may explain my audio result experience.

MasterApex, thanks for your professional advices.

 

[stevoppo]

Roland68, thanks for your professional advices.

Roland68, what are good sources to buy HDMI to I2S converter ?