Why SACD Disc playback sounds better (less jitter?) than its equivalent ripped DSF file / streaming playback

[MasterApex]

Over the weekend, we had a chance to rip a few of our own SACD discs into DSF file.
We then compare the playback of SACD Disc vs the Ripped DSF File on the same audio system.

Player: Oppo 105 SACD player (has USB input to playback the DSF file from original SACD Disc) - using XLR output
Pre-Amp: Denafrips Athena
Amplifier: Two Mark Levinson 333 Bi-Amp
Speakers: A Pair of B&W N801
Room: Acoustically treated
Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.

The ripped DSF file sounds good, but when compare to SACD Disc playback of the same album/song, the Disc playback has slightly better dynamic and transparency.
We could tell with our eyes closed when one of us switches between Disc Playback vs DSF file playback from the same Oppo 105.

Why is that?
Is it because the Disc playback are clocked signal inside the SACD player circuit so it has less digital jitter than the USB file interface playback?

 

[Doodski]

Over the weekend, we had a chance to rip a few of our own SACD discs into DSF file.
We then compare the playback of SACD Disc vs the Ripped DSF File on the same audio system.

Player: Oppo 105 SACD player (has USB input to playback the DSF file from original SACD Disc) - using XLR output
Pre-Amp: Denafrips Athena
Amplifier: Two Mark Levinson 333 Bi-Amp
Speakers: A Pair of B&W N801
Room: Acoustically treated
Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.

The ripped DSF file sounds good, but when compare to SACD Disc playback of the same album/song, the Disc playback has slightly better dynamic and transparency.
We could tell with our eyes closed when one of us switches between Disc Playback vs DSF file playback from the same Oppo 105.

Why is that?
Is it because the Disc playback are clocked signal so it has less digital jitter than the USB file playback?

How did you level match? What equipment did you use to level match?

 

[DVDdoug]

I'm not sure what you're hearing.

From what I've read, jitter creates noise and the jitter has to be artificially generated to make it bad enough for the noise to be audible.

The dynamics probably aren't changing either. About the only way you can accidently get dynamic compression is with clipping. Clipping is a "bad kind" of compression/limiting and usually it's heard as "distortion" rather than compression.

"Transparent" generally means "no change" An amplifier that doesn't affect sound quality (inaudible noise, distortion, and audibly flat frequency response) can be described as transparent. Or, MP3 compression that sounds like the original can be described as transparent compression. (That's lossy file compression not related to dynamic compression.)

If your rip doesn't sound like the disc we can say the rip is not transparent.

Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.

You have a pink noise SACD disc?

It's actually easier to level match a test-tone by measuring the voltage. Any kind of noise has variability, by definition, so it's hard to get an exact reading. And even with a tone, moving the SPL meter slightly, or you (or someone) moving around in the room can affect the reflected sounds, changing the readings.

What is a blind ABX test?

 

[MasterApex]

Yes, we use track 43/44 from 'Stay in Tune with PentaTone' from PentaTone classics or track 20 burn-in test from "The Audiophile's guide" SACD from Octave Records.
We use SPL meter and note the pre-amp setting for respective playback to keep them at the same level.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Why is that?
Is it because the Disc playback are clocked signal so it has less digital jitter than the USB file playback?

The USB playback likely has less jitter. Jitter is almost never an audible issue in any case. Forget about jitter.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes, we use track 43/44 from 'Stay in Tune with PentaTone' from PentaTone classics or track 20 burn-in test from "The Audiophile's guide" SACD from Octave Records.
We use SPL meter and note the pre-amp setting for respective playback to keep them at the same level.

As already said, use a tone and measure at speaker terminals instead for good level matching. Get the voltage within 1.2% of each other or less.

 

[Jim Taylor]

You might find this interesting:

what does jitter ACTUALLY sound like?

In a previous post we had an encounter with jitter in audio. The talk about jitter is hard to miss these days. There are plenty of products on the mar...

www.sereneaudio.com

Jim

 

[MasterApex]

The USB playback likely has less jitter. Jitter is almost never an audible issue in any case. Forget about jitter.

Did you mean USB playback has more jitter than SACD disc playback?

I am just curious to why, without comparing to the disc, the USB DSF file sounds perfect.
I don't think we will be able to tell apart if we play it from headphone or small speakers.
In our setup, we hear definitely better sound quality with SACD disc over its DSF file playback.
I dont know whether it is because of the jitter or something else.

 

[Doodski]

disc

Discs have a immense amount of jitter. I have seen it thousands of times on a oscilloscope(s) and it looked bad but it still sounded good.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Did you mean USB playback has more jitter than SACD disc playback?

I am just curious to why, without comparing to the disc, the USB DSF file sounds perfect.
I don't think we will be able to tell apart if we play it from headphone or small speakers.
In our setup, we hear definitely better sound quality with SACD disc over its DSF file playback.
I dont know whether it is because of the jitter or something else.

I can save you the trouble. Whatever it is, it is not jitter.

USB files have no clock when transferred to the DAC. So the internal free running clock at the DAC is used. That is the lowest jitter clocking. The SACD player is probably doing the same, and also has very low jitter. Despite the all the discussion jitter has to be enormously high to be audible.

Forget jitter, if there is a sound difference it is something else.

 

[Chrispy]

I think your imagination or test technique is giving false reports.

 

[MasterApex]

I am here to learn and explore why SACD Disc playback sounds better than its equivalent ripped DSF file.

It also reminds me of the playback of the 4k Blu-ray Disc "Top Gun Maverick".
Upon owning the disc, I was given a digital copy that resides in my streaming account.
The playback from Disc is always more dynamic and clear than the streaming.
Not sure why, although the projector show 4k signal and the AV processor shows the same data rate.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't know the details of how you are conducting your tests. Try this with friends. Switch for them several times, while actually using the same source each "switch". See if they then hear differences on some switches, but not on others.

Otherwise one might need some decent measurements of the outputs to see if anything is different. Just listening and having an opinion is not very reliable.

 

[dualazmak]

This thread "Is DSD 11.2 MHz ""required"" for recording taiko drums and Japanese stringed instruments?" and my rather intensive analysis on DSF=DSD64(1x) extracted tracks from the DSD layer and 44.1kHz 16 bit tracks of the CD layer, in post #42 and post #56 thereof, would be of your reference and interest, I assume.

My post here would be also of your reference regarding objective comparison between "well QC-ed" various DSD formats as well as "well QC-ed" FLAC and PCM(WAV) formats kindly provided by SOUND LIASON company.

I believe objective comparison (including Fq spectrum and gain/level) of "digital tracks within PC" using MusicScope 2.1.0 would be very much helpful for this type of discussion...

 

[Chrispy]

I am here to learn and explore why SACD Disc playback sounds better than its equivalent ripped DSF file.

It also reminds me of the playback of the 4k Blu-ray Disc "Top Gun Maverick".
Upon owning the disc, I was given a digital copy that resides in my streaming account.
The playback from Disc is always more dynamic and clear than the streaming.
Not sure why, although the projector show 4k signal and the AV processor shows the same data rate.

How have you demonstrated that sacd disc playback sounds better?

 

[MasterApex]

We simply listen to the audio presentation.
Just like one could hear the difference between SACD layer vs CD layer of the same album / songs on certain audio system that is highly resolving (not a TV speaker for example).
I am checking whether someone here have observed similar experiences and whether someone have the technical knowledge to explain why SACD Disc playback sounds better than its equivalent ripped DSF file playback.
Just as I shared the same observation that many Home Theater Guys know that the 4k Bluray disc playback always sounds and shows slightly better pictures than its equivalent Digital streaming 4k version.

 

[dualazmak]

Would you please kindly describe extensively in detail (one comparative block diagram should be nice for my/our quick understanding) the audio signal chains (throughout digital sources to your SP drivers) for your direct SACD disc listening and its equivalent ripped DSF file listening, including the "internal processing chain" in your OPPO SACD/CD player as well as where/how you can level match between the two audio chains? Without this/these information, I (we) cannot respond/comment on your specific inquiry.

Are there any difference(s) of DAC processing and pre-amplification between the two?? If you have major and/or minor difference(s) in DAC process and/or internal pre-amp path, it will possibly give you subjective hearing differencie.

I assume (almost believe) there would be some "physical/electronical" differences between the two audio chains which may be giving you the subjective hearing difference(s).

 

[MasterApex]

Let me try , but I don't know or have Oppo board schematic.

SACD Disc Playback:

• SACD Disc in Oppo 105 player , use the Oppo 105 XLR output to pre-amp

Ripped DSF File (From the same identical SACD Disc, ripped process is known from other forum/thread) Playback:

• DSF File in a 1TB SATA SSD
• Use SATA - USB Cable Adapter such as https://a.co/d/eQBJ9GL
• Insert USB to Oppo 105 front USB input
• Use Oppo menu to pick the DSF file and play
• Use the same Oppo 105 player XLR output to pre-amp

So, both playback is on the same Oppo player (DAC).
One is via Disc and the other is via USB file

 

[olieb]

Playback is level match with pink noise track so both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are the same volume SPL.

We use SPL meter and note the pre-amp setting for respective playback to keep them at the same level.

From this procedure I would say that both SACD Disc and DSF file playback are roughly the same volume SPL at best.
Time alignment of the sources is another thing with more or less sighted switching and "hearing a difference".
With these characteristics in your setup I would not take your assumption of audible differences in the signals for granted at all.

 

[MasterApex]

Hi olieb,
It was not an assumption, it is a repeatable distinguishable audible sound signature that we (me and friends) observed.
Have you even tried it with resolving audio room/speaker/pre-amp system to state your belief?