Which THD/Sinad/IMD numbers would you consider transparent enough for your room/ears/preferences ?

[Gedeon]

Firstly I apologise due my very limited knowledge about some technical aspects.

I've read a good bunch of threads, articles, reviews, papers...

As far as I'm able to understand one of the highest sources of THD comes from a combination of a poorly designed amplifier with a speaker setup (or headphone) which needs more "clean power" than the amp is able to deliver.

And when talking of amps to drive speakers best numbers usually aren't better than 90dbs, and, when listening at moderate to high levels, I listen at 60-70dbs in average, with some peaks.

And in a room/house is really difficult to get less than 20dbs of noise floor.

I've also more than 50… and several times I've tested myself really unable to perceive differences between Flac and +256 mp3.

So, why I should get gear/electronics/sources/material "better" than, let's say 90dbs ?

Not trying to be ironic or to criticize. I feel a bit confused. Just wondering about some kind of "quality" threshold beyond which would be virtually useless for me, looking for gear to improve numbers with high chances, won't become in better experience.

If I'm wrong in my assumptions just say it. I just want to learn.

Thanks for your patience !!

 

[Gedeon]

Still waiting for some opinions. Every opinion is valuable. I'd like to read yours ... !!!

 

[Hayabusa]

Still waiting for some opinions. Every opinion is valuable. I'd like to read yours ... !!!

I am listening via an Marantz AV8805 with 'only' a SINAD of 91dB..
Must say I am very happy with the results..... Good enough for me.
SINAD does not take into account the psychoacoustic masking of the human ear, so you could say its not the best metric to quantify transparency.

 

[majingotan]

I don't have an opinion myself but someone at the other forum have their own share. BTW, in my case, my room is about 30 dB SPL and I play my speakers at 85 (min) - 100 dB (peak) with about 88-90 dB SPL average near field at 40 cm away from tweeters from my Yamaha HS7.

 

[Hayabusa]

I don't have an opinion myself but someone at the other forum have their own share. BTW, in my case, my room is about 30 dB SPL and I play my speakers at 85 (min) - 100 dB (peak) with about 88-90 dB SPL average near field at 40 cm away from tweeters from my Yamaha HS7.

View attachment 42524

The numbers in this table assume you cant hear the distortion as it is below the noise floor.
But in reality you can hear things below the noise floor. So an extra margin of x dB's (dont know how much) needs to be added.

 

[majingotan]

But in reality you can hear things below the noise floor. So an extra margin of x dB's (dont know how much) needs to be added.

True when you're not playing music. But while playing at 90+ dB SPL average and a 30 dB SPL room, my ears cannot hear sounds below 30 dB room noise floor unfortunately. Then again, at these SPLs I can hear every minute nuance on the music that would be masked on average room.

 

[pkane]

Here's my suggestion. Rather than believing what others tell you is audible, just run the test for yourself. Head over to this thread and download DISTORT. Then, pick a desired level of distortion, say 0.1% THD (-60dB) and apply this to your preferred audio test track. Then, play the two files, the original, and the distorted one on your system, at your normal listening level to see if you can spot the difference. Try it at -80dB (0.01%) level and -40dB (1%) level. See what's audible to you, preferably doing it blind to eliminate possible bias.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what someone else says they hear, it's what you can hear with your own ears, in your room, with your system and your music. I created DISTORT for myself just for this purpose

 

[Gedeon]

Here's my suggestion. Rather than believing what others tell you is audible, just run the test for yourself. Head over to this thread and download DISTORT. Then, pick a desired level of distortion, say 0.1% THD (-60dB) and apply this to your preferred audio test track. Then, play the two files, the original, and the distorted one on your system, at your normal listening level to see if you can spot the difference. Try it at -80dB (0.01%) level and -40dB (1%) level. See what's audible to you, preferably doing it blind to eliminate possible bias.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what someone else says they hear, it's what you can hear with your own ears, in your room, with your system and your music. I created DISTORT for myself just for this purpose

Really great idea and great tool. Granted I'll test it and post my results.

 

[Cahudson42]

What is your music source? In my case it's Amazon Music HD streaming, which is mostly 16/44.1. So, if my system can provide it's full dynamic range of 96db (plus a bit for interconnect losses and headroom - say 105db each for DAC and HP amp..) I'm happy...No need to upgrade..

 

[pma]

The question

Which THD/Sinad/IMD numbers would you consider transparent enough

is pointless and these parameters expressed as numbers are absolutely unable to tell about transparency and sound quality. This path, though supported here, is completely misleading and oversimplifying, reflecting inexperience of the promoters and their purely technocratic approach.

 

[majingotan]

The question

is pointless and these parameters expressed as numbers are absolutely unable to tell about transparency and sound quality. This path, though supported here, is completely misleading and oversimplifying, reflecting inexperience of the promoters and their purely technocratic approach.

Do you think then that a speaker/transducer’s sound quality is governed by SINAD if this parameter is pointless per your statement?

IMO perceived SINAD (room + audio system) is a very important factor since perceived SINAD allows you to tell what you hear is transparent or inferior (micro details, punch blah blah and all that audiophile subjective jargons are absent due to poor SINAD). At least to my subjective hearing, my perceived SINAD lets me hear the finest details and all that audiophile jargon that are absent on say car radio listening due to poor perceived SINAD

 

[Gedeon]

The question

is pointless and these parameters expressed as numbers are absolutely unable to tell about transparency and sound quality. This path, though supported here, is completely misleading and oversimplifying, reflecting inexperience of the promoters and their purely technocratic approach.

I'm really curious about which numbers/measures do you suggest to serve way better in the goal of objectively "value" audio gear. Honest question.

 

[LeftCoastTim]

At typical listening volumes, -75dB is below my threshold of hearing.

So -85dB is more than plenty for me.

I should post my test files so others can try out what -45, -65, -75dB sounds like on their systems.

 

[flipflop]

I'm really curious about which numbers/measures do you suggest to serve way better in the goal of objectively "value" audio gear. Honest question.

Measurements related to frequency response (e.g. output impedance, channel mismatch, and FR itself) give a much more comprehensible insight into audible problems IMO.
Floyd Toole has also expressed his dissatisfaction with distortion measurements on a few occasions. One example: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../speakers-and-im-distortion.8082/#post-198783

To anwer your original question, although I haven't done much testing on myself, I'd guess all types of distortion below -80 dBFS would be inaudible to me under any circumstances.

 

[solderdude]

Dynamic range tests I performed on myself told me 80dB difference is enough for me to not be bothered by anything as low as that.
So a signal/grass ratio in multitones below 80 dB is good enough for me. So SINAD of 85 is already sufficient for me.
Would like to see microphones and recording studios reach that as well.

 

[Sal1950]

Dynamic range tests I performed on myself told me 80dB difference is enough for me to not be bothered by anything as low as that.
So a signal/grass ratio in multitones below 80 dB is good enough for me. So SINAD of 85 is already sufficient for me.
Would like to see microphones and recording studios reach that as well.

Agreed, if held to the stake 80-85 is what I'd give

 

[LeftCoastTim]

I should post my test files so others can try out what -45, -65, -75dB sounds like on their systems.

Posted:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/can-you-hear-75db.10386/

 

[Mulder]

As I have understod it, the hypotetical level of transparency on an individual level is said to be 115 db. Where do this numer come from? Is this number verified in controled tests?

 

[BDWoody]

As I have understod it, the hypotetical level of transparency on an individual level is said to be 115 db. Where do this numer come from? Is this number verified in controled tests?

These two threads may help.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Understanding Audio Measurements

Here is a tutorial and documentation on measurements I perform. I will update it from time to time to keep it current. Equipment The weapon of choice for me is the Audio Precision Sys-2522. Here is a picture of it in my rack (top box): This is a very capable device able to work both in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have tested me.
I can barely hear a sound if I turn the volume down 60dB.
From this I deduce that if there were a distortion artefact at that loudness I would only just hear it without music playing, if music were playing I am quite sure it would be drowned out (for me).
I can't speak for others but I am satisfied that I wouldn't heara distortion level at -60dB.
That goes for noise too whilst music is playing but I suppose having a hifi switched on with no music playing having audible noise in the room would irritate so I guess -80dB would be fine for noise.

People get confused because the loudness range of all sound is far more than this, but music recordings don't ever use the whole dynamic range of the music if it is huge simply because 99+% of people don't possess anything which could play it and anyway there is a volume control.