Was told "your new speakers would sing with 200w"

[luxmatic]

The track my son played, that helped start me down this path:

- from The Crown Soundtrack. Not exactly a bass barn burner, but it easily illustrated that I hadn't set things up as well as possible. He's 24 and in some ways, more mature than I am.

On the other hand, I audition things with a dubstep track -

The first set of changes I've made have helped both sound better.

 

[luxmatic]

Thanks everyone, seriously. You've validated much of what I've learned the last few days, and helped me better understand my next steps.

Tonight, I've moved the front speakers from the Moon to the Denon, and the Moon is now driving the rear height speakers in my setup. I also learned this evening that the Denon has a somewhat hidden ohm configuration option that allowed me to switch it from driving 8 ohm to 6 ohm speakers. Objectively, it sounds pretty good now at reasonable volumes.

Next step, after a few weeks, is to try out a couple of amps for the ESS speakers, and see how (or if) they improve things. At this point, looking at either a Rotel 1582, or two Outlaw 2220s. $2k vs. $800...

And, fwiw, my full system: Rotel CD11 Tribute, Technic 1200G TT, Denon X4700H, Simaudio Moon I-1, ESS AMT 1D Revival front speakers, Hsu VTF-2 MK3 subwoofer, Hsu HC-1 MK2 center, 4 Hsu HB-1 MK2 surrounds, and 4 Polk OWM height speakers.

 

[Doodski]

Thanks everyone, seriously. You've validated much of what I've learned the last few days, and helped me better understand my next steps.

Tonight, I've moved the front speakers from the Moon to the Denon, and the Moon is now driving the rear height speakers in my setup. I also learned this evening that the Denon has a somewhat hidden ohm configuration option that allowed me to switch it from driving 8 ohm to 6 ohm speakers. Objectively, it sounds pretty good now at reasonable volumes.

Next step, after a few weeks, is to try out a couple of amps for the ESS speakers, and see how (or if) they improve things. At this point, looking at either a Rotel 1582, or two Outlaw 2220s. $2k vs. $800...

And, fwiw, my full system: Rotel CD11 Tribute, Technic 1200G TT, Denon X4700H, Simaudio Moon I-1, ESS AMT 1D Revival front speakers, Hsu VTF-2 MK3 subwoofer, Hsu HC-1 MK2 center, 4 Hsu HB-1 MK2 surrounds, and 4 Polk OWM height speakers.

Wowow! You really are a enthusiast. Nice pic.

 

[Beave]

Thanks everyone, seriously. You've validated much of what I've learned the last few days, and helped me better understand my next steps.

Tonight, I've moved the front speakers from the Moon to the Denon, and the Moon is now driving the rear height speakers in my setup. I also learned this evening that the Denon has a somewhat hidden ohm configuration option that allowed me to switch it from driving 8 ohm to 6 ohm speakers. Objectively, it sounds pretty good now at reasonable volumes.

Next step, after a few weeks, is to try out a couple of amps for the ESS speakers, and see how (or if) they improve things. At this point, looking at either a Rotel 1582, or two Outlaw 2220s. $2k vs. $800...

And, fwiw, my full system: Rotel CD11 Tribute, Technic 1200G TT, Denon X4700H, Simaudio Moon I-1, ESS AMT 1D Revival front speakers, Hsu VTF-2 MK3 subwoofer, Hsu HC-1 MK2 center, 4 Hsu HB-1 MK2 surrounds, and 4 Polk OWM height speakers.

From everything I've read about that, you want to keep it at the 8 Ohm setting. All the 6 Ohm setting does is limit power output. There is no sound quality improvement, only a restriction on output, probably to keep the unit from overheating.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Thanks everyone, seriously. You've validated much of what I've learned the last few days, and helped me better understand my next steps.

Tonight, I've moved the front speakers from the Moon to the Denon, and the Moon is now driving the rear height speakers in my setup. I also learned this evening that the Denon has a somewhat hidden ohm configuration option that allowed me to switch it from driving 8 ohm to 6 ohm speakers. Objectively, it sounds pretty good now at reasonable volumes.

Next step, after a few weeks, is to try out a couple of amps for the ESS speakers, and see how (or if) they improve things. At this point, looking at either a Rotel 1582, or two Outlaw 2220s. $2k vs. $800...

And, fwiw, my full system: Rotel CD11 Tribute, Technic 1200G TT, Denon X4700H, Simaudio Moon I-1, ESS AMT 1D Revival front speakers, Hsu VTF-2 MK3 subwoofer, Hsu HC-1 MK2 center, 4 Hsu HB-1 MK2 surrounds, and 4 Polk OWM height speakers.

Yes don’t set it to 6 ohm. It is misleading and limits power.

 

[GD Fan]

That's a great looking listening room.

 

[Chrispy]

You might like this article on the subject of the ohm setting https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1

 

[hex168]

If properly implemented, that looks like a lot of speaker for the $. Back in the day, I really liked the originals. The originals had a less restrictive-looking grill that probably caused less diffraction, but I admit the new ones look good!

The Heil AMT has a dip in it's frequency response below 2K that has to be addressed in the crossover if used down to its low frequency limit, resulting in sensitivity around 95dB/1W/1m. Therefore, they are probably fudging a bit on the sensitivity.

ESS AMT-1 Dipol Air Motion Transformer 'Great Heil' (Selected) buy at hifisound.de

Buy ESS AMT-1 Dipol Air Motion Transformer 'Great Heil' (Selected) online at hifisound.de » 329 € ✓ Your online hifi specialist retailer for Speaker Drivers

www.hifisound.de

Since the tweeter is dipole, it would probably be beneficial to pull the speakers out from the wall quite a bit. Try 3 to 5 feet and see if you prefer it.

And welcome to ASR! Next step, read some posts here on using Audyssey and REW (apologies if you are already doing that). Note that the current close-to-the-wall position and pulling them out into the room will require different equalization.

 

[luxmatic]

If properly implemented, that looks like a lot of speaker for the $. Back in the day, I really liked the originals. The originals had a less restrictive-looking grill that probably caused less diffraction, but I admit the new ones look good!

The Heil AMT has a dip in it's frequency response below 2K that has to be addressed in the crossover if used down to its low frequency limit, resulting in sensitivity around 95dB/1W/1m. Therefore, they are probably fudging a bit on the sensitivity.

ESS AMT-1 Dipol Air Motion Transformer 'Great Heil' (Selected) buy at hifisound.de

Buy ESS AMT-1 Dipol Air Motion Transformer 'Great Heil' (Selected) online at hifisound.de » 329 € ✓ Your online hifi specialist retailer for Speaker Drivers

www.hifisound.de

Since the tweeter is dipole, it would probably be beneficial to pull the speakers out from the wall quite a bit. Try 3 to 5 feet and see if you prefer it.

And welcome to ASR! Next step, read some posts here on using Audyssey and REW (apologies if you are already doing that). Note that the current close-to-the-wall position and pulling them out into the room will require different equalization.

Thanks for the good advice. The speakers are about a foot from the wall now vs. 4 inches (moved them on your advice), and that's pretty much as far as I can take it before the room's aesthetics take a hit that my wife would frown upon.

I do use Audyssey, so covered there and reran setup. Now, REW, is a whole other deal. Watched some tutorials, and was impressed with what was possible. But... my room is set with unmovable speaker/furnishing placement, so without those variables to play with, not sure what I could do with the info.

 

[egellings]

At 200 watts, are the speaker singing or screaming for their lives?

 

[tc2007]

• Sensitivity: 98db

@luxmatic These are very high sensitivity speakers which means they will sing at 10W. So yes they will definitely sing at 200W which they will never need to draw. LOL

Sensitivity is measured by supplying a 1W (2.83V?) signal to the speaker and output measured in decibels at 1 meter distance with a mic. These output 98db. Anything above 90db can be considered high sensitivity, meaning they don't need a lot of power.

See what 98 db sounds like

Decibel Scale

The human ear is capable of hearing very quiet (low intensity) sounds and extremely loud (high intensity) sounds. The ratio of intensities between silence and ‘ow that hurts my ears’ is…

salfordacoustics.co.uk

 

[Keith_W]

• Sensitivity: 98db

@luxmatic These are very high sensitivity speakers which means they will sing at 10W. So yes they will definitely sing at 200W which they will never need to draw. LOL

Sensitivity is measured by supplying a 1W (2.83V?) signal to the speaker and output measured in decibels at 1 meter distance with a mic. These output 98db. Anything above 90db can be considered high sensitivity, meaning they don't need a lot of power.

See what 98 db sounds like

Decibel Scale

The human ear is capable of hearing very quiet (low intensity) sounds and extremely loud (high intensity) sounds. The ratio of intensities between silence and ‘ow that hurts my ears’ is…

salfordacoustics.co.uk

Yes, but the point people have been making is that it may be 98 marketing decibels, not 98 real decibels

 

[luxmatic]

Agree with all (most?) of you. That quote, from an ESS owner's group forum, is what drove me to dig in deeper on a bunch of topics than I had not paid too close attention to. Posted my query here as I absolutely appreciated folks questioning audiophile voodoo - e.g. asking for citations.

Over my life I did not have many speakers, and all were small-ish: Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble, Boston Acoustics VR-1(?), HSU HB-1 MK2, a temporary set of ESS AMT Rock Monitors, and now these ESS AMT 1D Revivals.

 

[jim1274]

Thanks for the good advice. The speakers are about a foot from the wall now vs. 4 inches (moved them on your advice), and that's pretty much as far as I can take it before the room's aesthetics take a hit that my wife would frown upon.

I do use Audyssey, so covered there and reran setup. Now, REW, is a whole other deal. Watched some tutorials, and was impressed with what was possible. But... my room is set with unmovable speaker/furnishing placement, so without those variables to play with, not sure what I could do with the info.

Found this when looking for some AMT threads. I’ve been using my Heil ESS AMT-1b as the dipole speaker in some testing of soundstage comparisons for Omni/dipole/bipole/unipole. I had found them a little bright until I did some placement experiments—game changer. Try them at 1M and 1.5M from the front wall and see what you think. I get that you have physical placement restrictions for your permanent installation, but pull them out in the room if possible for a test and listen. Or do a frequency response sweep where they are now and at 1M and 1.5M and see what you get.

 

[jim1274]

...and this threw me into a rat hole trying to understand if it was true, and then subsequently learning quite a bit about amplifiers plus the components I already had.

My new speakers were ESS AMT 1D Revivals, which I love. Specs say 6 ohm, 375 watts. I was driving them with a Simaudio Moon i-1, which puts out 75 watts into the speakers. Had that comment in the back of my mind when my son came to me a few days ago and said my speakers were distorting with some heavy organ track he was playing. This was all complicated by the huge room I have these in... 18x18 ft, vaulted ceilings, and tile floor. Need things louder than I'm used to. So, yeah, better amplification would likely be good.

You sure it’s not just the woofer performance instead of amp distorting?

I have a new appreiciation for my older 1b version of what you bought after experimenting with room placement until finding a spot that tamed the rising high end response.

Adjacent to my "music" system, I have my theater setup: Denon X4700H, HSU VTF-2 MK3 subwoofer, center, surrounds and height speakers. I'd use the Moon+ESS as a pre-amp destination for the Denon front channels in this case.

I wondered how I could include the subwoofer on the "music" side of things... learned about my speaker's frequency response, the Denon's bass management and its ability to have a separate 2 channel configuration, and how to the subwoofer can be tuned. Moved my music sources (tt, cd) to the Denon from the Moon, setting the Denon's crossover to 90hz in LFE+Main SW mode for 2 channel output and dialed in some changes on the subwoofer side. Honestly, it sounded much better when I was done.

Which then leaves me with the question - will my speakers still benefit with more amplification now that I've added a subwoofer to the mix for music? Had almost settled on a couple of Outlaw Model 2220s based on the review here, but thought it would be good to ask before spending the money.

I’m running mine right now as I write with a Benchmark AHB2 amp and seems to be all the power they needed. Didn’t realize these speakers had that much power handling capability—maybe I need to dial it up and see if the Benchmark “blinks”.

 

[Chrispy]

Agree with all (most?) of you. That quote, from an ESS owner's group forum, is what drove me to dig in deeper on a bunch of topics than I had not paid too close attention to. Posted my query here as I absolutely appreciated folks questioning audiophile voodoo - e.g. asking for citations.

Over my life I did not have many speakers, and all were small-ish: Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble, Boston Acoustics VR-1(?), HSU HB-1 MK2, a temporary set of ESS AMT Rock Monitors, and now these ESS AMT 1D Revivals.

FWIW smaller speakers tend to be lower sensitivity....

 

[jim1274]

FWIW smaller speakers tend to be lower sensitivity....

I just checked sensitivity of the 1D “revival”—98db(!!!). I need to see what my older 1B model spec is. Also see it shows 375W RMS (!!) power handling. Maybe I need to crank mine up a lot more…

 

[Galliardist]

Yes, but the point people have been making is that it may be 98 marketing decibels, not 98 real decibels

More specifically, sensitivity is usually measured at 1kHz. The problem is that speakers can have very different power requirements at other frequencies, particularly in the bass. The most common models for this to show up are larger B&Ws. Try taking that 1kHz sensitivity measurement of 90db and choosing an amp for any recent 802 model accordingly...

 

[jim1274]

More specifically, sensitivity is usually measured at 1kHz. The problem is that speakers can have very different power requirements at other frequencies, particularly in the bass. The most common models for this to show up are larger B&Ws. Try taking that 1kHz sensitivity measurement of 90db and choosing an amp for any recent 802 model accordingly...

Point taken. That high sensitivity number would make no sense with that high a power handling rating?