Where is the "Kick Bass Drum" ?

[Chrispy]

Well, I guess I have a different brain and set of ears at a live concert than I would have at home. Also, love to have music that didn't suffer an engineer's agenda.

P.S I'm not an audiophile, I just like music defined and presented as close to what the artist intended.

Trying to replicate a live concert is difficult to do in a home even with the best recordings, let alone on recordings meant for a variety of media where compromises are made. Just the nature of recordings to an extent to need not just the artist's efforts, but various other personnel (heck the artist may not even be much involved at all) like producers/directors, recording, mixing and mastering personnel. IMHO the best thing to do is to keep going to live shows and support the artist more directly

 

[dfuller]

So when you say "kick bass" - do you mean the open, ringing kind of bass drum like you hear in jazz? That's pretty uncommon in rock, where there's a lot more emphasis on beater attack.

 

[Plumbus the Wise]

But your question raises a good point:

MIXING IS HARD. It took me 10 years before I thought my mixes were "radio ready."

Just because you have a laptop, Reaper, an SM57 knockoff from Amazon, and a Behringer interface doesn't mean you know how to record and mix music.

Rock and roll in particular with lots of guitar tracks and stuff is a challenge, because you have to make space in the mix sonically to be able to HEAR other instruments, and that takes experience. Not just Reaper and some free plugins.

Typically it's not the bass drum, but the bass GUITAR that I find lacking space and definitiion in the mix. It's just a low-end warble instead of articulated notes.

Who buys a knockoff sm57 lol, they are like 50 bucks used.

 

[Mnyb]

It’s and artistic choice with two intents , have the kickdrum impulse hit harder would demand greater dynamic range in the mix and thus the overall volume of the track might get lower ( loudnes war mastering ) not really a problem per se , just crank up the volume a bit . But commercially everything should sound loud all the time for some reason ( urgh ).

The recordings migth get to demanding for simpler equipment and small speakers. So kickdrum gets compressed and frequency limited .

Also look up the equal loudness curve , low frequency demand higher volume to be heard at all .
And if you also want that bump in the chest while playing you need to play loud . Kickdrum is a loud instrument.

It migth not be feasible to do at home .
I had a childhood friend with a drum kit in a normal small apartment room , the volume he could achieve was not possible for a normal stereo

Music with kickdrum .
In Pink floyd the wall there is one track with good kickdrum ( don’t remember which one )
And “do this my way” with Blackalicius on the album NIA

 

[Mart68]

If you can't hear the kick drum on this then it's your system:

 

[jae]

Bass drum fundamental can be tuned quite low...depending on the frequency it might be well within the SPL fall-off of many speaker systems that are not full range of have sub woofers. So adding a subwoofer or listening on headphones with good extension and bass output may help if its a reproduction problem. Also really highly depends on genre of music, the spacing, and ultimately how it is composed and mixed. The broader band spectra of a drum can be further masked by very midrange-dominant balance that is more common these days. I mostly listen to classical, jazz, fusion, funk, japanese citypop, among some electronic stuff like jungle/light drum and bass etc... I very rarely have an issue with audibility with my selection. Artists still need to employ all their skills and tools available to create rhythmic passages that incorporate good use of the bass drum, and it is production's job to make sure that's conveyed on the track. It's your job to make sure it's being reproduced properly.

 

[Rja4000]

Why doesn't it happen at live concerts ?

It does.

But dynamics are usually less compressed in live events: you don't need to match other productions' apparent loudness, like final CD.
And good PA systems may produce a wider dynamic range than you'll typically allow at home, just because they usually play louder.

Mixing kick drum in rock is not easy.
As everything, it's a matter of choices and compromises.
It's easier in Jazz, usually, mainly because they usually use acoustic bass.

10 Kick Drum Mixing Tips

This guide offers a few suggestive mixing techniques to help you get starting at shaping your kick drums. Learn how to get more punchy and powerful kicks. The post 10 Kick Drum Mixing Tips appeared first on Los Angeles and Online.

iconcollective.edu

 

[DJBonoBobo]

When I listen to music, I enjoy the detail in the presentation the most. To be able to distinguish between clapping and finger snapping, electric or acoustic guitar, different horns and drums just allows me to appreciate the musicians/artists so much more. Don't misunderstand me, I do enjoy all the other aspects of the music; ambiance, spread, placement etc. But definition/detail is what I enjoy the most, which leads me to ask this question of the forum:

Where is the "Kick Bass Drum" ?

I do hear it in some Hi Rez recording (192hz/24bit and above) but almost all the music I listen to doesn't have the kick bass drum audio able. I know it is there because it is a intracal part of the timing of the piece.

Why is it removed?

Do you use headphones or speakers? If you are listening with speakers in a smallish room, you can often experience a room-induced dip in the 70-120 Hz region. AFAIK this is the region most important for the "kick" sensation.

 

[Rjharle]

It does.

But dynamics are usually less compressed in live events: you don't need to match other productions' apparent loudness, like final CD.
And good PA systems may produce a wider dynamic range than you'll typically allow at home, just because they usually play louder.

Mixing kick drum in rock is not easy.
As everything, it's a matter of choices and compromises.
It's easier in Jazz, usually, mainly because they usually use acoustic bass.

10 Kick Drum Mixing Tips

This guide offers a few suggestive mixing techniques to help you get starting at shaping your kick drums. Learn how to get more punchy and powerful kicks. The post 10 Kick Drum Mixing Tips appeared first on Los Angeles and Online.

iconcollective.edu

For rock kick drum, I'm a big fan of multiband compression.
You may give it a try if you want.

This and some of the other responses have shown that including or not including the kick bass in a musical piece is a matter of choice and the skill of the sound engineer; because in some genres it is quite common, while others it is totally absent. Let's put aside most of the discussion that pertains to listener equipment, environment and genre. It is possible to some degree to include the kick bass in all genres of music, so the listener can at least hear the kick bass setting the timing of the musical piece. So why I'm I and others still looking for the kick bass?

I think IMHO it comes down to today's market; there is no place for it. Today music is relegated to a chip, storage, mobility of the cell phone and ear buds. Markets cannot afford to include wide dynamic range in their music because it would harm the user's ears (we all know where that would go). So it would seem that that policy sits fine with the engineers because it is difficult to produce the kick bass anyway.

So folks like me who are looking for a complete musical presentation will just have to settle for what we get

As long as you have music, you will never be alone

 

[Sokel]

You mean like the end of the "news"?

(terrible copy but you get what I mean)

 

[bennybbbx]

here can see the kick freq lowest is around 70 hz. it is a little higher as usual. normal range is 50-60 hz. you mean in headphones you hear it good, but not with your speakers ?. this happen because of room modes. 70 hz is also a small speaker able to do. maybe you get a gap at 70 hz you should measure your speakers at hearing position or try positiomn your speakers diffrent or just adjust the70 hz around with EQ that it sound simular too headphone you like

 

[Rjharle]

here can see the kick freq lowest is around 70 hz. it is a little higher as usual. normal range is 50-60 hz. you mean in headphones you hear it good, but not with your speakers ?. this happen because of room modes. 70 hz is also a small speaker able to do. maybe you get a gap at 70 hz you should measure your speakers at hearing position or try positiomn your speakers diffrent or just adjust the70 hz around with EQ that it sound simular too headphone you like

View attachment 231720

Here are a couple of tunes with good kick bass.
P.S. Sina is a 14-year-old lady who can really play cover - check her out on youtube.

 

[FeddyLost]

I'm not an audiophile, I just like music defined and presented as close to what the artist intended

So, listen it as it sounds.
If something is absent, it was removed intentionally.
Otherwise you'll need to remix original multitrack if that possible.

 

[Ricardus]

There is a lot of frequency masking happening when so many sound objects must share the limited space in a 2 channel mix, instruments that got much in common frequency-wise will drown each other out. I'm sure you sometimes have heard a sparser part in a song where you can clearly hear the kick drum, but when the song got denser the kick drum seem to disappear. Most likely it's there beating equally much through the song but it got drowned out by the frequency masking.

In other cases, the mixer simply opted to sacrifice either the kick drum or the bass guitar because the mix got too muddy and dense with too much energy in that frequency spectrum. And in other cases, the mixer tries to make the one or the other duck for the other with help of something called "side-chain compression". That is done by placing a compressor on let's say the bass guitar but the compressor is triggered by the kick drum and makes the bass guitar duck every time the kick "kicks in". Frequency masking is a problem that's not very easy to solve.

I literally just said this.

Who buys a knockoff sm57 lol, they are like 50 bucks used.

Unfortunately lots of people. Percussion players used to show up at my live sound gigs with their 57 knockoffs. I would start talking about what mics I was going to use on their stuff and I would hear the dreaded words "Oh, I brought my own mics." 99 out of 100 times that was bad news.

I mean they can get 3 of these for your 50 bucks so it must be worth it!!!!

https://www.amazon.com/Microphone-Instrument-Professional-Cardioid-Unidirectional/dp/B08G4M7488/ref=asc_df_B08G4M7488/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=509069195978&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8078095205095209065&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1015335&hvtargid=pla-1296864504373&psc=1

 

[sarumbear]

P.S I'm not an audiophile, I just like music defined and presented as close to what the artist intended.

The artist has approved the mix you are hearing. What makes you think that what you hear is not what they intended!

 

[Stokdoof]

Only after i own closed cabinet speakers I really started to enjoined this album with respect to drums and impact:

 

[Ricardus]

The artist has approved the mix you are hearing. What makes you think that what you hear is not what they intended!

In fairness, that isn't always the case. If it's a big label and a new band with no power a producer might be making all of those calls.

 

[Rjharle]

The artist has approved the mix you are hearing. What makes you think that what you hear is not what they intended!

Well to start, the artist doesn't hear all the possible cuts, only the one the engineer presents as the final cut. Then the engineer will go through the limitations and how many samples he/she tried. (with a little sweat on the brow) Next, the manger tells the artist how great the sound is and this is just what we are looking for (crossing his/her fingers). The artist then (if interested) gives the nod. As long that music has a good beat, that they can take their clothes off to ...... it's a go. IMHO, most artist don't know much about sound mixing or care. The sound engineer should be wearing the big boy pants and present the best possible representation of the art and insists that go to market.

 

[sarumbear]

Interesting to read the wish that artist’s creativity should be honoured while thinking that artists either don’t care or relinquish their controls to others.

 

[goat76]

Interesting to read the wish that artist’s creativity should be honoured while thinking that artists either don’t care or relinquish their controls to others.

I‘m sure most serious artists care about how their records sound. How the production quality turns out for the one who doesn't care, you know the artists who are just in for the fame and the money, shouldn't be of our concern.