Looking for advice: an upgrade from Topping D50 III (under €600)

[bric-out]

Hello fellows audio enthusiast. I'm currently listening at a wide genre of music: pop, rock, funk, edm, jazz, fusion, classical (any formation, from solo to symphonic orchestra) ecc.
My setup is the follow: Laptop->D50 III (via USB, no hub)->[TRS-XLR] SMSL H400 HPA-> Beyerdynamic DT880 250 Ω, Beyerd. DT880 600 Ω and Sennheiser HD600, with different cable options (tripowin Balanc. 4.4mm and mogami 2534 Unbal. for HD600. DIY Balanc. mogami 2549 (stripped off to obtain four conductors) and Balanc. Litz (Neotech nece-3001 II) for both the DT880.

My previous HPA was the Topping A50 III and i decided to switch to the current smsl because the A50 III had some balancing issues with the volume

Well, i cannot say that D50 III is "garbage", quite the contrary! . In most of the music that i'm currently listening is pretty pleasant: i like the detail retrieval, the neutral and analytical sounding (but it's not cold at all, there's some warmth) the pitch black noise floor (with a decent master)... but when it comes to bass and whole orchestral ensemble response sometimes seems it goes in trouble: i know that every can that i own has a different character, one or two working better on the low-end and the other better in airyness and that i need to continuing to make rigorous comparisons.
BTW, the thing is, in the whole orchestral crescendo, the sound results a bit messy, and in the lower frequencies (drum kick, double bass, analog and synth bass), when the dynamic goes up, i perceived sometimes loosenes and/or a bit distortion.
Edit: sorry i forgot: i often hear clicking/pops during the reproduction, qobuz or foobar or musicbee

Do you think that switching to a different dac like smsl raw-dac1 or smsl raw pro-dac1 or other available dac (topping, cambridge audio...) under €600 on Amazon.it (i live in Italy) the situation in those regarding will change?
Have you any other suggestions?
Thanks

 

[somebodyelse]

So long as neither is broken, if tested blind you're extremely unlikely to hear a difference between DACs that measure transparent like the D50 III and presumably whatever you replace it with. Having said that, pops and clicks indicate something isn't working properly. They're often an indicator of latency issues preventing USB data delivery in time to keep the DAC's buffer from emptying. Which OS are you using?

 

[bric-out]

So long as neither is broken, if tested blind you're extremely unlikely to hear a difference between DACs that measure transparent like the D50 III and presumably whatever you replace it with. Having said that, pops and clicks indicate something isn't working properly. They're often an indicator of latency issues preventing USB data delivery in time to keep the DAC's buffer from emptying. Which OS are you using?

Windows 11. I've tried to disable the power saving features on usb. I've replaced the stock usb c cables with 'better' ones in terms of power rating and data speed rate. I even tried to set the priority to high for the app in use (foobar, musicbee ecc.). Now, i must say that the pops and clicks are occurring less often.
There's one things that bother me most, and i don't why, when i'm viewing a movie or a tv series with vlc: my laptop is a Galaxy book4 pro 360 and if i switch, in samsung settings, hdr+ to bright, it's a pops and clicks party!!!

 

[somebodyelse]

I'll defer to someone who actually uses Windows then - I don't. LatencyMon has been suggested in other threads - this one seems similar to what you describe, and affects more than one make of USB DAC.

 

[bric-out]

I'll defer to someone who actually uses Windows then - I don't. LatencyMon has been suggested in other threads - this one seems similar to what you describe, and affects more than one make of USB DAC.

Thanks! I'll give it a try

 

[RandomEar]

If you've got problems with a USB DAC, you can try the suggested troubleshooting. An easy solution could be to switch to optical / Toslink, if your PC does have an optical output. If not, there are small USB solutions which do offer Toslink outputs. The added benefit of such a solution is that ground loops between your PC and audio gear can't occur anymore. Latency problems with USB audio are tricky, though, so simply swithcing to an optical connection might not fix them all.

That being said, unless your D50 III is broken or you selected a "broken" oversampling filter, there will be no audible difference to a newer DAC. Sound reproduction is determined by your headphones, plus the settings on your PC and devices - for example any active EQ. If you want to improve your sound, start with adding an or changing the EQ. If that doesn't lead to satisfactory results, you could try a different headphone.

 

[Doublej]

Some things to ponder:

Are you running the latest version of Windows 11? The latest version is 24H2.
How much RAM is installed on the machine?
How much free disk space do you have?
Are all of the hardware drivers from Samsung up to date?
Is there a Windows Driver for the D50? If so is it installed and up to date?
Do you have the latest firmware installed on the D50?
Is any antivirus, malware or other scanning and/or backup software installed?
Are you using One Drive or any other cloud connected service for files?
Do you have a stable, high performing internet connection? (e.g. you are not using a cellular connection with high latency)
Is any other equipment in your setup, such as a router, performing packet scanning or checking for site safeness?
If you are accessing an online music service through a browser have you tried different browsers? Is the behavior the same?
Have you tried changing the sample rate and bit depth in the Windows Control Panel? Is the behavior the same?
Have you tried using a different computer? Is the behavior the same?

Have you opened the Windows Task Manager to review resource utilization and to what is running and perhaps impacting performance? You could consider installing CCleaner (free) and review the Performance Optimizer tab to see if there is anything obvious that may be impacting performance.

 

[bric-out]

Doublej said:​

Some things to ponder: (my replies in bold and blue )

Are you running the latest version of Windows 11? The latest version is 24H2. Y
How much RAM is installed on the machine? 16 GB
How much free disk space do you have? 167 GB
Are all of the hardware drivers from Samsung up to date? Y
Is there a Windows Driver for the D50? If so is it installed and up to date? Y
Do you have the latest firmware installed on the D50? Y
Is any antivirus, malware or other scanning and/or backup software installed? Apart from M$ defender, no other
Are you using One Drive or any other cloud connected service for files? I disabled OneDrive several months ago
Do you have a stable, high performing internet connection? (e.g. you are not using a cellular connection with high latency) Y (FTTH 1Gbps)
Is any other equipment in your setup, such as a router, performing packet scanning or checking for site safeness? Except for the firewall and the DoS protection block, i don't see anything relevant

If you are accessing an online music service through a browser have you tried different browsers? Is the behavior the same? I'm using qobuz through the official app, and the behavior doesn't change using offline player like foobar2000

Have you tried changing the sample rate and bit depth in the Windows Control Panel? Is the behavior the same? Yep, same story
Have you tried using a different computer? Is the behavior the same? No and i'm going to do asap with my desktop and my mbp, thx!

 

[Kiko1974]

I know that many, not to say the most of forum members, won't agree with me.
Try a DAC with the latest AKM chipset that is AK4191+AK4499EX.
I don't remember the reference, but Topping, maybe it's the E70, that uses that AKM chipset that's in your budget.
I own an SMSL D400 PRO, that is a bit more expensive, around 600 €, and I must say I LOVE the sound of It. I've had my D400 PRO for around a year, and despite I like the sound of well mastered and pressed LP record, I play them using a Chinese clone of EAR834P tuve Phono preamp with NOS Telefunken ECC83 tubes between my upgraded Goldring GR-1 turntable (actually a Rega) with some "enhancements" (full aluminium subplatter instead the metal+plastic that came from the Factory, and a 2 Kg. glass platter, cartridge IS an AudioTechnica VM740ML, Microline stylus), but with the SMSL D400 PRO I play more digital music than ever.

 

[bric-out]

I know that many, not to say the most of forum members, won't agree with me.
Try a DAC with the latest AKM chipset that is AK4191+AK4499EX.
I don't remember the reference, but Topping, maybe it's the E70, that uses that AKM chipset that's in your budget.
I own an SMSL D400 PRO, that is a bit more expensive, around 600 €, and I must say I LOVE the sound of It. I've had my D400 PRO for around a year, and despite I like the sound of well mastered and pressed LP record, I play them using a Chinese clone of EAR834P tuve Phono preamp with NOS Telefunken ECC83 tubes between my upgraded Goldring GR-1 turntable (actually a Rega) with some "enhancements" (full aluminium subplatter instead the metal+plastic that came from the Factory, and a 2 Kg. glass platter, cartridge IS an AudioTechnica VM740ML, Microline stylus), but with the SMSL D400 PRO I play more digital music than ever.

Hi Kiko1974. Thanks for the reply and advice.
The fact is that, during this time, i've been going through an SMSL raw-dac 1, with the AKM chips pair, and returned. The reasons:
from cold start, within 30 min, more or less, the sound was quite balanced, almost in the entire range of freqs. But after the warm-up period, the mid-highs and highs became too smooth and a slightly darker, the mid-range was there but the mid-lows and lows became overbearing, producing an unpleasant Oomph, loosing tightness, sounding like they went through a compressor effect, with almost no natural decay (on string instruments, kick drum ecc.).
Now i'm using the D90 III Discrete (i know, quite a significant step up) and i'm enjoying it. There are some issues though, that i'm trying to resolve with the good support of the seller (Aoshida-audio-it): the usb port is type b (what in the dac! why they didn't use the type c or a?) and i have only two cable that aren't quite good... Putting the DAC on top of the HPA, with XLR connection, there are very disturbing static noise from the left channel (i swapped the xlr cables to make sure if one of them was bad but both are fine). That noise disappears only when i move away the DAC. In RCA mode there are no problems with the D90 on top of the H400. I suspect a shielding issue on the xlr port of the DAC.
(Edit: punctuation and some other fixes )

 

[Gorgonzola]

Now i'm using the D90 III Discrete (i know, quite a significant step up) and i'm enjoying it. There are some issues though, that i'm trying to resolve with the good support of the seller (Aoshida-audio-it): the usb port is type b (what in the dac! why they didn't use the type c or a?) and i have only two cable that aren't quite good... Putting the DAC on top of the HPA, with XLR connection, there are very disturbing static noise from the left channel (i swapped the xlr cables to make sure if one them was bad but both are fine). That noise disappears only when i move away the DAC. In RCA mode there are no problems with the D90 on top of the H400. I suspect a shielding issue on the xlr port of the DAC.
(Edit: punctuation and some other fixes )

I have both the Topping D50 and D90 DACs, albeit mine are the older AKG versions. Based on older reviews and my hearing there is no audible difference using RCA (i.e. single-end) output. The only advantage of the D90, (in my experience), is the XLR (balanced/differential) outputs that give me the ideal connection to my balance preamp and hence balanced input power amp.

Ironically in your case it's the XLR output to the SMLI that's giving you problems. It's not the cables as you discovered, but some interference at close proximity between the two devices -- not clear to me which one. If space permits, just move the two farther apart, otherwise use RCA.

OR otherwise sell both the D90 III and the SMSL H400 and get something like the Topping A70 Pro that combines DAC and headphone amp.

 

[tccalvin]

Sound-wise, virtually every DAC with solid measurements is going to sound the same. If you're sure your noise issues are caused by the DAC, then it's probably worth it to side-grade to a different model. I know, not very helpful. Just a reminder that you really don't need to spend lots of money to get good sound. Just focus on solving your noise issues.

 

[bric-out]

Ironically in your case it's the XLR output to the SMLI that's giving you problems. It's not the cables as you discovered, but some interference at close proximity between the two devices -- not clear to me which one. If space permits, just move the two farther apart, otherwise use RCA.

Yeah, i know, i wrote that i suspect a shielding issue on the xlr port of the DAC, not the cables.

 

[bric-out]

Sound-wise, virtually every DAC with solid measurements is going to sound the same.

Again, no please... The so called "solid measurements" are useful but i don't think they are enough to tell the entire "story". Yeah, sure, THD, SNR superb but, FR apart, correct me if i'm wrong (i'm sincere), we are measuring only at a specific frequency value and not anything else, right? I don't want to sound arrogant, i understand the meanings of most of the measurements but i don't have the knowledge of an electrical-acoustic engineer for sure, but what about the other elements? Circuitry design, the other various components (caps, resistors, IC ecc. with their specific values, quality ecc.), both in the supply stage (this one with basic, cost-effective PSM or toroidal...), the core stage of the DAC and the Analog part?
Imho, I think that, with this mindset, we are kickin' many other things out of the 'equation'.
It's no placebo, i can guarantee, i perceived micro to almost macro differences between the three DAC, just one example: the D90 has an easy audible better dynamic than the D50 III and SMSL Raw-dac 1 (listened carefully, with the same cans, same connection, same audio track segments ecc.).
Do you think that i wanted to ended up spending €999 on a DAC? Hell no! But, after extensive searching by Article, forum (including this of course) and YT reviews (sadly, most of the audio related yt channels don't seems so reliable, in part or at all... sponsor money? i just saved a couple, one is "Reviews By WaveTheory", i guess he's reliable, for now), i couldn't find a decent and appealing substitute in the €600 (living in Italy i'm forced to choose products from Europe and from Amazon in particular, for their convenient return and refund policy, S.M.S.L doesn't offer much choice and i wanted to avoid Topping with ESS... so, gathering as much info as i could, narrowing the choices, i opted for the D90 III D.
(Edit: words corrections and others)

 

[Svend P]

Since you are new here, you have probably not read this:

'Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?'

Nov 18, 2020

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:

1. Measurements are not everything.

2. You all never listen.

3. I trust my ears, not graphs.

4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.

5. You all must not listen to music at all.

6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?

7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.

8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.

9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.

10. Surely designers...

• amirm
• Replies: 16,275
• Forum: General Audio Discussions

• 

and this

'How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?'

Oct 4, 2019

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE, IMAGING, and MIDRANGE of a DAC? I actually don't know what to say to people to not be rude. If you try explaining that a DAC isn't something that actually changes the sound, they accuse you of having "a hard-on for measurements", as if it were the measurements themselves that tell you that DACs don't...

• Willhelm_Scream
• Replies: 10,921
• Forum: DACs, Streamers, Servers, Players, Audio Interface

• 

You can't trust any of the subjective sites. They'll just tell you what you want to hear.

 

[bric-out]

Since you are new here, you have probably not read this:

'Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?'

Nov 18, 2020

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:

1. Measurements are not everything.

2. You all never listen.

3. I trust my ears, not graphs.

4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.

5. You all must not listen to music at all.

6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?

7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.

8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.

9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.

10. Surely designers...

• amirm
• Replies: 16,275
• Forum: General Audio Discussions

• 

Yes, i've seen that...

and this

'How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?'

Oct 4, 2019

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE, IMAGING, and MIDRANGE of a DAC? I actually don't know what to say to people to not be rude. If you try explaining that a DAC isn't something that actually changes the sound, they accuse you of having "a hard-on for measurements", as if it were the measurements themselves that tell you that DACs don't...

• Willhelm_Scream
• Replies: 10,921
• Forum: DACs, Streamers, Servers, Players, Audio Interface

• 

You can't trust any of the subjective sites. They'll just tell you what you want to hear.

Sorry but, i usually don't stop only at reviews and talkings, and i'm learning (sometime quickly, other slowly) to put away several sites/channels and the only way for me, and for now, to try a device, is to gathering info as much as i can from trustworthy sources (allegedly, at least, for some of them), narrow the possible choices, purchase (if affordable for my pockets), try and decide (stay or not).

 

[tccalvin]

Yes, i've seen that...




Sorry but, i usually don't stop only at reviews and talkings, and i'm learning (sometime quickly, other slowly) to put away several sites/channels and the only way for me, and for now, to try a device, is to gathering info as much as i can from trustworthy sources (allegedly, at least, for some of them), narrow the possible choices, purchase (if affordable for my pockets), try and decide (stay or not).

Hey, if you're happy with the products you own, more power to you. I personally don't really care whether someone is enjoying something due to placebo or not, as long as they are enjoying it.

If, on the other hand, you would like to learn about the science behind digital audio and psychoacoustics and/or you feel like you're spending too much without ever being completely satisfied, this forum is the place for you.

I used to put a lot of trust in my ears until I tried my first level-matched blind ABX test and I lost most (not all) faith in them.

I learned that I was listening with my eyes. Most of us do.

You don't have to have any fancy equipment to start. You can just try one of these tests:

Is your audio system really ready for lossless?

Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and Spotify-compression quality audio

abx.digitalfeed.net

Keep in mind that the spectrum of compressed audio differs significantly from the spectrum of the original, lossless file. And yet, I can't hear a difference. I thought I did, but then the test results showed me that I was imagining it.

A tough blow to my confidence, but good news for my wallet.

To be clear, I agree that one's own subjective experience cannot be reduced to graphs and statistics. But science has its advantages. In this case, it might allow you to enjoy music more for less money.

 

[Kiko1974]

Hi Kiko1974. Thanks for the reply and advice.
The fact is that, during this time, i've been going through an SMSL raw-dac 1, with the AKM chips pair, and returned. The reasons:
from cold start, within 30 min, more or less, the sound was quite balanced, almost in the entire range of freqs. But after the warm-up period, the mid-highs and highs became too smooth and a slightly darker, the mid-range was there but the mid-lows and lows became overbearing, producing an unpleasant Oomph, loosing tightness, sounding like they went through a compressor effect, with almost no natural decay (on string instruments, kick drum ecc.).
Now i'm using the D90 III Discrete (i know, quite a significant step up) and i'm enjoying it. There are some issues though, that i'm trying to resolve with the good support of the seller (Aoshida-audio-it): the usb port is type b (what in the dac! why they didn't use the type c or a?) and i have only two cable that aren't quite good... Putting the DAC on top of the HPA, with XLR connection, there are very disturbing static noise from the left channel (i swapped the xlr cables to make sure if one of them was bad but both are fine). That noise disappears only when i move away the DAC. In RCA mode there are no problems with the D90 on top of the H400. I suspect a shielding issue on the xlr port of the DAC.
(Edit: punctuation and some other fixes )

That's Strange what you describe with the SMSL RAW-1. You may have gotten a faulty unit or maybe that's how the AKM chipset combo AK4191+AK4499EX is implemented on this DAC.
This doesn't happens on the SMSL D400 PRO, I notice a slight improvement, very slight but it's there, after 20 minutes or so after the DAC is on. Warm Up in my opinion is a fact not only with tubes, also with solid state Gear.

 

[bric-out]

Hey, if you're happy with the products you own, more power to you. I personally don't really care whether someone is enjoying something due to placebo or not, as long as they are enjoying it.

If, on the other hand, you would like to learn about the science behind digital audio and psychoacoustics and/or you feel like you're spending too much without ever being completely satisfied, this forum is the place for you.

Yes, i know, that is the reason why i keep reading from time to time ASR

I used to put a lot of trust in my ears until I tried my first level-matched blind ABX test and I lost most (not all) faith in them.

I learned that I was listening with my eyes. Most of us do.

You don't have to have any fancy equipment to start. You can just try one of these tests:

Is your audio system really ready for lossless?

Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and Spotify-compression quality audio

abx.digitalfeed.net

Yes, i've known it for a while... Have you ever wondered why it's so difficult to perceive the differences? I've come to some conclusions

1. The system for comparing has a major flaw: we can't select a portion of the track, for both A,B and X (yes i know how it works, you must choose what is X), at our will (start and end point), as we can do in a DAW; this is a flaw because of the limitation in time of the AWM (Auditory working memory). Value may vary: there are many factors that affect the duration, but, according to different studies, the amount is within few sec. (4 sec, 2 sec. e.g.). So, without an optimal situation like that i described before, in a DAW, it's hard and annoying

2. In a compressed file, even at max bitrate, something is discarded: if i remember well, high frequencies above a certain threshold. This may affect, in a subtle way, harmonics and even dynamics (based on the psychoacoustics phenomena that bind frequency and perceived loudness, see equal-loudness contour). According to the database (this one) that gather infos on dynamic range of plenty of recordings (with media and codecs info), there are several of these with poor DR rating. So, what i'm trying to mean, are we sure that the (allegedly) lossles recordings or the original source went, at least in some portion, beyond that threshold and that the dynamic range wasn't bad? Because if not, it's very hard to distinguish, or a waste of time imho

A tough blow to my confidence, but good news for my wallet.

Totally agree with that!

To be clear, I agree that one's own subjective experience cannot be reduced to graphs and statistics. But science has its advantages. In this case, it might allow you to enjoy music more for less money.

Uhm, maybe, maybe

 

[bric-out]

That's Strange what you describe with the SMSL RAW-1. You may have gotten a faulty unit or maybe that's how the AKM chipset combo AK4191+AK4499EX is implemented on this DAC.

At this point i don't know what to think. I hope for the faulty one but who knows...

This doesn't happens on the SMSL D400 PRO, I notice a slight improvement, very slight but it's there, after 20 minutes or so after the DAC is on. Warm Up in my opinion is a fact not only with tubes, also with solid state Gear.

I think that at different temps even a solid state gear may behave differently (not huge differences of course!) just sayin', after all, the electrical properties of components are indeed affected by temps, maybe audibly maybe not...