When 12 Gauge Wire is Not 12 Gauge

[Descartes]

For loudspeaker cables almost any reasonable electrical or audio cable will do. You don't need the good bulk cable manufactures like Belden, Canare or Mogami. Those are for interconnect cables.

Agreed, except if one wants cables to last a life time then Mogami W3104 with 4 conductors 12AWG are outstanding or the W3103 with 2 conductors 12AWG

 

[Speedskater]

Yep, with some hi-fi cables, you never know how long they will last.
But, connectors and installing connectors might be a bigger consideration.

 

[nebunebu]

This makes me wonder, how does a regular lamp wire measure?
Is there any benefit to have a solid core vs stranded wire?

 

[somebodyelse]

This makes me wonder, how does a regular lamp wire measure?

Depends what you mean by 'regular lamp wire' but probably good enough for short runs. I'm guessing it's parallel or slightly twisted pair, similar to most generic speaker cable, so resistance is the parameter to look at.

Is there any benefit to have a solid core vs stranded wire?

It shouldn't, at least within the range of 'normal' speaker cable sizes, environments and non-faulty insulation.

 

[Sal1950]

This makes me wonder, how does a regular lamp wire measure?

Just depends on how thick it is.
All else equal, the thicker, the lower the resistance, the better it will be.

Is there any benefit to have a solid core vs stranded wire?

Not really, solid core has the problem of being stiff and inflexible.
Otherwise they will be the same if the measured resistance is the same.

 

[tyreman]

I have been using the Belden 12 gauge gray sheathed 5000UE (I think it is listed as) with bananas soldered on each end for a number of years.
Previously had the their Belden 14 gauge to did a bunch of a/bing with the 2 types never really heard a difference

 

[Sal1950]

I have been using the Belden 12 gauge gray sheathed 5000UE (I think it is listed as) with bananas soldered on each end for a number of years.
Previously had the their Belden 14 gauge to did a bunch of a/bing with the 2 types never really heard a difference

Probably never will unless the distance is like 500ft

 

[tyreman]

Probably never will unless the distance is like 500ft

yes pretty much what I figured to

 

[Sal1950]

yes pretty much what I figured to

It's all a matter of resistance, distance, and ohms law.
Good cable is cheap, just run the thickest you can afford and put any worries to bed.

 

[pseudoid]

It's all a matter of resistance, distance, and ohms law.

Recently, I read a good rule-of-thumb that cable "skin-effect' is less than 1% at 20kHz; so as to not matter much even in long-runs.
Even if that "1% rule" is inaccurate, the impact seems something that will not make me lose sleep.

 

[luedriver]

the images of the first post are not appearing for me, in a rush now to look them up

 

[amirm]

Yes, sorry about that. I should have captured the files rather than link to them.

 

[Multicore]

Yes, sorry about that. I should have captured the files rather than link to them.

The missing images are available in archive.org here

When 12 Gauge Wire is Not 12 Gauge

I know a lot of members here use premium speaker wires. But I thought I share this testing I did on common low cost 12 gauge wires. As always, comments and questions are welcome. Introduction Why test 12 gauge (AWG) wire? 12 AWG speaker wire is a “safe bet” from performance point of view...

web.archive.org

As this appears to be the first thread on ASR, in some sense of the word first, so it would be nice to get them back so the OP reads properly. 10-year anniversary is coming up Feb next year.

 

[Dumu]

A friend of mine had quite long and very questionable looking speaker cables and he was wondering if he would benefit from changing them. After few beers we decided to try and test if the change would be audible and took a length of normal electrical installation cable and plugged both cables to amplifier end. Then we tapped the speaker posts with the second cable while listening some music to see if it had an audible effect. It did indeed create some small variations, the volume increased by a hair when the second pair was connected. Would have been impossible to tell by just comparing the cables otherwise. The friend did eventually change the cables but said he heard no difference. Atleast they looked better than the old lamp wire...

I think this is pretty easy test to see if you can hear differences in cables. Same goes for testing bi-wiring and those link pieces in between speaker posts. Have someone tap the connection with suitable connector and if it makes an audible difference, then you might have a benefit.

 

[krabapple]

an 'audible difference' isn't a reliable difference in such a test as you describe

 

[Dumu]

and 'audible difference' isn't a reliable difference in such a test as you describe

Could you explain why?

By my thinking, if you have too much resistance in the cables to lower the output for atleast some part of the frequency range, then adding a parallel cable will make a difference. If the cable is already inaudible, then you cannot improve it and the second cable does nothing. And by quickly tapping the connection it is much easier to pick up the level fluctuations.

 

[Sal1950]

Could you explain why?

Test isn't being done under any type of controlled conditions. It isn't blind nor having any other controls set for it.

 

[Dumu]

Test isn't being done under any type of controlled conditions. It isn't blind nor having any other controls set for it

It is blind if you cannot see when the connections are being tapped. If you want to make sure it is blind, then close your eyes while the other one is tapping and you can for example say out loud the taps you hear.
Listening to small changes is very difficult, but listening to a signal within a signal like that is much more easier. If the change is so subtle that you are not absolutely sure if you hear any change, then you are probably fine and would not benefit from the change.

But you are right, it is not a scientific method, but in my mind an easy way to identify clear problems.

 

[krabapple]

Could you explain why?

By my thinking, if you have too much resistance in the cables to lower the output for atleast some part of the frequency range, then adding a parallel cable will make a difference. If the cable is already inaudible, then you cannot improve it and the second cable does nothing. And by quickly tapping the connection it is much easier to pick up the level fluctuations.

After a year here, you should know:
In audio , 'small changes' are notoriously imaginary. Especially as regards cabling. The 'easy' way often yields falsehood.

This is not confidence-building:
After few beers we decided to try and test if the change would be audible and took a length of normal electrical installation cable and plugged both cables to amplifier end. Then we tapped the speaker posts with the second cable while listening some music to see if it had an audible effect. It did indeed create some small variations, the volume increased by a hair when the second pair was connected.

The 'method' here is obscure as written. You rigged two speaker cables to be connected to the same amp +/- posts for a speaker channel? Then you 'tapped' (touched?) the speaker's posts with the second cable while they were still connected to the first cable? Huh?

You might want to add more detail, though the method is inherently flawed, unless, at the very least, you have controls for sightedness (by any parties involved), and objective measurements that verify that a difference exists and is likely to be audible.

 

[Dumu]

Basically what you do is you connect two pairs of wires to amp like you woud do when bi-wiring, and then tap the second pair to speaker posts repeatedly (tap-tap-tap..) while listening to wideband music. If you notice clear fluctuations in the sound, then the decrease in cable resistance is audible. This kind of extra signal is much more easy to detect than just a tiny level increase that anyone would be hard pressed to notice after switching cables. It's always much easier to detect changes when they happen instantly while listening.

Of course if you have measurement devices available you could get more accurate results, but then again it would be very hard to tell if the change is audible or not. This method is pretty easy to try without any special tools. You could even test one speaker at a time using the speaker cable from other channel to make the test. Just need to be careful not to short circuit the speaker wires.


I've seen people change out the connection links between speaker terminals, saying it improves the sound. This kind of method works there also. You leave the links on and plug only one end of the new interconnects and tap with the others. If you don't hear anything change then the links are fine.

Edit: I do not mean to say that this is the best or most accurate way to notice very subtle differences in cables, but instead a quick and easy way to detect if the resistance in your speaker cables is creating a noticable drop in output level.