What wire to build my own RCA interconnects?

[zalive]

Your ears didn't hear it, it was your brain which thought it heard it.

My ears were verrrry unsatisfied the second day - I expected a burn in, true. So there was this bias present, true. What I didn't expect was impact that big over that small piece of sh... I mean wire and plastic What I heard surpassed all my bias expectations

 

[Krunok]

My ears were verrrry unsatisfied the second day - I expected a burn in, true. So there was this bias present, true. What I didn't expect was impact that big over that small piece of sh... I mean wire and plastic What I heard surpassed all my bias expectations

Trust me, you wouldn't be hearing a difference if there was someone switching new and "burned-in" cables in a blind test.

 

[solderdude]

IDK solderdude.
If I didn't hear anything I wouldn't be participating in this discussion at all.
However, in a given example - IC made out of Neotech solid core silver, the second day sound was practically faulty. I think the cheapest IC would sound more natural lol.

This I do not doubt for a second. I have experienced similar effects dozens of times. Sometimes my system (portable, not mains connected) sounds poor, the next day or a few days later the EXACT same song on exactly the same system sounds heavenly.

If that were to happen after I changed something I would blame the change even though I would never have the chance to prove it.
The days that music sounds crap fortunately are few.
It's my brain, not my ears nor gears.

So...there is NO doubt in my mind you experienced it, heard it and it was very obvious.
The thing I doubt is that it is due to the cable.

My advise: build 3 more cables. Have someone else put them in in your chain while you are not knowing it is a burned in one or a fresh one.
Only afterwards you and the cable changer compare notes which was in there and what your notes were.

You would prove it to yourself at least.
Those are the kind of tests I administered to myself (long ago) and gave me more education than what I got from books or teachers.

 

[Grattle]

I like to use thin and flexible Mogami or similiar microphone cable. Usually shielded, and great quality. Works great for really short interconnects especially.

 

[zalive]

This I do not doubt for a second. I have experienced similar effects dozens of times. Sometimes my system (portable, not mains connected) sounds poor, the next day or a few days later the EXACT same song on exactly the same system sounds heavenly.

If that were to happen after I changed something I would blame the change even though I would never have the chance to prove it.
The days that music sounds crap fortunately are few.
It's my brain, not my ears nor gears.

So...there is NO doubt in my mind you experienced it, heard it and it was very obvious.
The thing I doubt is that it is due to the cable.

My advise: build 3 more cables. Have someone else put them in in your chain while you are not knowing it is a burned in one or a fresh one.
Only afterwards you and the cable changer compare notes which was in there and what your notes were.

You would prove it to yourself at least.
Those are the kind of tests I administered to myself (long ago) and gave me more education than what I got from books or teachers.

Those fluctuations of sound impression are well known to me...

What I noticed is this: in a system sounding on a brighter side, impressions will naturally fluctuate from sounding just right (balanced or almost there) to chronically lacking bass/too bright. You may not even recognize this being the problem, because (perceived) lack of bass may lead your focus to something completely else, like how the treble is sounding, does it feel easily flowing or kind of distorted, too much detailed but not in a pleasant way etc. Once I got conscious of this I pay attention to the bass and what's happening there, regarding presence, definition, extension. However I suspect it's not necessarily of (or completely of) subjective nature, but the AC voltage (and quality) fluctuations might have something to do with it. Stability of amplifier regarding voltage may not be great and variance is possible. So far what seems to me is that days where I'm not pleased with the sound are far more often during colder season - however it as well resembles people spending more time at home, consuming more power (including heating), so at least locally lower average voltage or stronger voltage fluctuation is not something unexpected.

Anyway, the cable. The impact on the sound was quite different to any other occasion of the sound fluctuation I know of. Simply, this was different to anything I experience otherwise.

One additional thing: I don't remember this much difference with any previous cable - usually I remember no big difference or no difference at all, to be honest. So as for me, my suspicion is that teflon might be a specific material in this regard. I also recall one more thing: my initial intent was to remove teflon insulation and put the bare wire in insulation of a larger diameter, then braid it. However this telfon is not easy to strip without molesting the conductor so I gave up on idea. Still it's a thin layer of insulation so I thoght 'oh well it's thin anyway, it will be minimum influence'. Then completely unexpected experience: the influence sounded quite the oposite during burn in, it was big. At the point I was not satisfied because I expected minimum influence from the thin insulation (in much smaller volume compared to commercial IC's) but it really sounded bad at the point. I really wasn't expecting it. So my position on this is I can't even doubt this impression.

And even if I doubted, or should I be wrong and biased...is burn-in really that important? Regardless of whether it exist or doesn't, the final result is the same.

However if you're willing to experiment yourself particularly on the teflon, I warmly recommend Neotech solid core OCC, copper is cheaper and the effect should be similar/same if it comes from the teflon. The final result should be a good IC, IME there's something special in OCC wire whether used as IC or as a speaker cable, so the quality of the cable should make any eventual effort really worthwhile. However this is not valid for listeners who are convinced that any cable should sound the same anyway.

 

[SIY]

The idea of wire having these effects is ignorant voodoo. There is no kinder term for it.

 

[DonH56]

Voltage, not current, my mistake in description.

As for the rest, I wouldn't know. But the signal (its voltage) will charge the dielectric and this electrical charge from dielectric will eventually discharge back into a conductor. And the time delay is inevitable. It's physics. It should be measurable. For the prerequisites how it should be measured, which measurement used, equipment, parameters, don't ask me, I wouldn't know.

If real scientific minds were present here instead of engineers, they would think how to try to capture this instead of thinking how to justify their attitude. But I see you've done some steps in this direction at least and I appreciate this.

I have measured it. And even mentioned a bit about what it took. And why it doesn't matter at audio. It's not all that hard to measure even for us stupid ignorant bad-attitude hairy-knuckled low-brow engine-ears. But thank you for insulting my intelligence while at the same time not claiming any basis for understanding your own conclusions. I love the type of folk who call others stupid for not knowing what they don't know. Even if they do.

 

[eliash]

I really recommend StarLine RCA connectors. Single point contact at mass, hollow signal pin, completely low conductor mass, AFAIK no nickel, no brass or bronze, just gold (or silver) plated tellurium copper. Plus moderate price compared to similar quality/design RCA's. Massive metal contacts are not a good idea because of pronounced skin effect where the majority of the signal current will be flowing through inferior surface made of various metals mix plus their contact surface.

I give it a try next time...interesting mechanical construction and proper strain relief, app. the same price as the hexagonal clamp RCAs and the material looks trustworthy...thanks for the hint!
- Does the nylon body stick securely on the equipment´s outer RCA receptacle when loaded with the weight of the cable?

 

[solderdude]

Massive metal contacts are not a good idea because of pronounced skin effect where the majority of the signal current will be flowing through inferior surface made of various metals mix plus their contact surface

The skin effect is known well and documented. It can be somewhat important when the cable/connector resistance is substantial compared to the load and source resistance.
In interlinks this is not the case at all. The change of resistance is unmeasurably small compared to the load resistance so even when the skin effect would be extremely pronounced there still would not be any measurable (let alone audible) effect within the audio range and far beyond.

Besides, gold is a poorer conductor than copper so gold plating does not help for the skin effect at all. Gold plating is there to ensure the contacts don't corrode.

And no ... Teflon does not do what you assume it does. If it did it would be quite unusable as an insulator. Blame the most obvious cause instead.
Why would Teflon be able to 'clearly distort' an audio signal (it has no mechanism for it) and the next day (not 120+ hours) sound great.
How can 'energy' be stored in Teflon while there is an AC signal on it and only 'distort' the signal in the first few hours.
When something changes audibly it is already VERY measurable. This is contrary to the popular belief that certain things can not be measured yet be very audible, just not under blind and rigorous testing using the ears only.

Build yourself another cable and blind test. Convince yourself...

 

[zalive]

I have measured it. And even mentioned a bit about what it took. And why it doesn't matter at audio. It's not all that hard to measure even for us stupid ignorant bad-attitude hairy-knuckled low-brow engine-ears. But thank you for insulting my intelligence while at the same time not claiming any basis for understanding your own conclusions. I love the type of folk who call others stupid for not knowing what they don't know. Even if they do.

I didn't think bad, there was no hidden meaning, I never implied anyone here was stupid (really I don't see anyone here being stupid, on any side, and I would not expect anyone stupid here). I only thought what I have written, and judgement was based on the attitude which I recieve. When I wrote anything first with the ideas, I got insulted by more than one member in various ways. I've got a high degree in electrical engineering, though it never became my profession, still I have some basic understanding. But I really would not know about all what was ever measured in a cable world. I appreciate the info on this but there's no reason to insult me (comment not going to you) just because I'm not informed about this. And yeah, I do recall you mentioned about measuring it though I forgot it was you who commented. Anyway, I'm really glad things like this were measured (and that someone present here has even done it, like you did), because they should exist,. Agreeing whether it's audible or not is another thing. I choose to remain sceptic on whether it's not audible because of my own observations.

 

[zalive]

I give it a try next time...interesting mechanical construction and proper strain relief, app. the same price as the hexagonal clamp RCAs and the material looks trustworthy...thanks for the hint!
- Does the nylon body stick securely on the equipment´s outer RCA receptacle when loaded with the weight of the cable?

Nylon body fits tightly just as it should so no problem with this, it's a quality connector.

 

[M00ndancer]

I choose to remain sceptic on whether it's not audible because of my own observations.

Unfortunately, your brain is fooling you. Sighted observations is not valid. Every cable you make will measure differently. Is the difference audible? Never, unless there is a serious flaw in your cable or you are doing 1000m cables. The only way to make sure is to do a proper ABX test.

 

[solderdude]

I choose to remain sceptic on whether it's not audible because of my own observations

All I can say is that the root cause of your beliefs is due to the method of testing used.
Hence my suggestion to test in another way when you can still use your ears and brain which you seem to trust over reasoning.

Just 'remove' the KNOWING part and trust your hearing. You don't need to wear a blindfold or switch directly.
Level matched (within reason) and not knowing is the key during test involving hearing.

 

[zalive]

Unfortunately, your brain is fooling you. Sighted observations is not valid. Every cable you make will measure differently. Is the difference audible? Never, unless there is a serious flaw in your cable or you are doing 1000m cables. The only way to make sure is to do a proper ABX test.

ABX is not a proper test for the purpose. It includes unnecessary complexity by dealing with three elements (A, B and X) instead of minimum two, plus it includes the element of recognition, which is unnecessary additional element if you want to solely focus on the difference in sound.

I proposed a different DBT. Having two systems, A and B, but without X. A same music sample is being reproduced to the listener twice, only he doesn't know if it was played through the same system both times (either A or B) or through different systems (possible combinations: A then B, B then A, A then A, B then B). A listener has to answer a question whether he listened to the same system, or to different ones. No recognition element, pure focus on spotting whether there is a difference in sound. No three reproductions so making things as simple as possible, which isn't the case with the ABX.

 

[zalive]

All I can say is that the root cause of your beliefs is due to the method of testing used.
Hence my suggestion to test in another way when you can still use your ears and brain which you seem to trust over reasoning.

Just 'remove' the KNOWING part and trust your hearing. You don't need to wear a blindfold or switch directly.
Level matched (within reason) and not knowing is the key during test involving hearing.

I don't feel least need to prove this to myself, I'm certain. A difference was so big that even ABX should be no problem, though I really think it's a wrong methodology for the purpose of discerning sounds.
What could motivate me is the desire to try to prove something to the others
However the latter is really too demanding to perform, and I unfortunately don't have a strong enough desire to justify the effort and/or expense

I communicate with few local audio designers (both amateur and professional) who of course do measurements when designing audio equipment, yet they don't share the view dominantly present here at the ASR, that measurements (especially the ones commonly performed) will tell you everything about the sound. If you think all the knowledgeable people in audio share the view, you're mistaken. And yes, one of them is a trained sound professional. He designs, he measures, he did blind tests and has nothing against them, yet he trusts his ears the most when it comes to evaluating the sound quality end result.

 

[Krunok]

I don't feel least need to prove this to myself, I'm certain. A difference was so big that even ABX should be no problem, though I really think it's a wrong methodology for the purpose of discerning sounds.
What could motivate me is the desire to try to prove something to the others
However the latter is really too demanding to perform, and I unfortunately don't have a strong enough desire to justify the effort and/or expense

I communicate with few local audio designers (both amateur and professional) who of course do measurements when designing audio equipment, yet they don't share the view dominantly present here at the ASR, that measurements (especially the ones commonly performed) will tell you everything about the sound. If you think all the knowledgeable people in audio share the view, you're mistaken. And yes, one of them is a trained sound professional. He designs, he measures, he did blind tests and has nothing against them, yet he trusts his ears the most when it comes to evaluating the sound quality end result.

Obviously this forum is not the best place for you, and vice versa. This is really not the best place to make claims like the one you just made that some cable properties are audible but not measureable and yet offering absoltely no proof for that.

No offense, but believing in something like this is the same thing like believing Earth is flat. I suggest you read this article and come to your senses because life is simply too short to walk around without basic understanding how the world around you is functioning.

 

[zalive]

Obviously this forum is not the best place for you. And vice versa, because this is not really the best place to make claims like the one you just made that some cable properties are audible but not measureable and yet offering absoltely no proof for that.

I don't believe in one-sided forums, such should not exist IMO.
@DonH56 implied it is measurable, his view is that it's not audible.

 

[Krunok]

I don't believe in one-sided forums, such should not exist IMO.

Democracy is when you have a choice between democrats and republicans. But asking to have a choice apart from scienctifically proven facts is choosing between knowledge and ignorance.

@DonH56 implied it is measurable, his view is that it's not audible.

And he was right. The same is implied in the article I suggested you to read. But you said something else:

"..yet they don't share the view dominantly present here at the ASR, that measurements (especially the ones commonly performed) will tell you everything about the sound. "

 

[solderdude]

I don't feel least need to prove this to myself, I'm certain. A difference was so big that even ABX should be no problem, though I really think it's a wrong methodology for the purpose of discerning sounds.
What could motivate me is the desire to try to prove something to the others
However the latter is really too demanding to perform, and I unfortunately don't have a strong enough desire to justify the effort and/or expense

Alas, I am confident you will never be able to prove anything like that to others. Simply because it was a one time event and most likely brain related.

When you know so many engineers that 'believe' and measure then there really should be NO reason not to build a few more cables and test it again yourself or have them measured (send it to Don ?).
Or better yet ... record it !
Any 192/24 soundcard should be able to record very obvious sound differences.
THAT is how you prove it to the world. Not by making unsubstantiated claims based on a sighted listening test.
The fact that you mention 120hrs+ yet it existed only a few hours top is suspect.

You would have to realize that no measurements have ever shown the effects you heard.
Even though thousands of people heard it too.

 

[zalive]

Democracy is when you have a choice between democrats and republicans. But asking to have a choice apart from scienctifically proven facts is choosing between knowledge and ignorance.

Science changes their views every while once stronger and different evidence arrives. It has happened, it is happening, it will happen. Current scientific views mean little to me, to stick solely to current scientific views seems like a religion in my eyes, A different church but the same style of worshiping.

"..yet they don't share the view dominantly present here at the ASR, that measurements (especially the ones commonly performed) will tell you everything about the sound. "

Yes. I know it's anecdotal but I had to mention this.
Such a shame those guys don't have spare time to discuss here - though I'm not sure they would have the desire even if they did. They prefer practicing to discussing.